Squeezeboxes on major sale

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What I meant by ‘better’ is that due to the removal of media reading issues from the chain, you are guaranteed an accurate bit-stream (with no corrections or temporal issues), which will translate into a more accurate playback chain than a transport.

Well, OK, except that a hard drive is still a mechanical device that reads data from media, it just happens to be magnetic data rather than optical data. In that regard I propose that reading off a hard drive is in many ways no different than reading optically in the case of a transport on a high end audio player. I used to work for a disk drive manufacturer. You would be suprized at the amount of data that is discarded, misread, or lost entirely as it is being read. If it weren't for data correction algrhytms most of our computers would look like:

ikfuunoeryyvwioutgi8 mfjifiulkmfgyyqw ufuwyt78368cP))*^FR%der%$s1oi
 
man..oh..man, all this ripp'in, squeezebox'in and hard driv'in makes me wanna 'hug my turntable' !!

I just hope when I'm old and feable, sitting in the home with oatmeal running down my chin, diapers needing a change, I can still manage to get 'the needle in the groove' !!
 
man..oh..man, all this ripp'in, squeezebox'in and hard driv'in makes me wanna 'hug my turntable' !!

I just hope when I'm old and feable, sitting in the home with oatmeal running down my chin, diapers needing a change, I can still manage to get 'the needle in the groove' !!

Soon, Dave... you will joint the dark siiiide..... in time....

:devil:
 
Well, OK, except that a hard drive is still a mechanical device that reads data from media, it just happens to be magnetic data rather than optical data. In that regard I propose that reading off a hard drive is in many ways no different than reading optically in the case of a transport on a high end audio player. I used to work for a disk drive manufacturer. You would be suprized at the amount of data that is discarded, misread, or lost entirely as it is being read. If it weren't for data correction algrhytms most of our computers would look like:

ikfuunoeryyvwioutgi8 mfjifiulkmfgyyqw ufuwyt78368cP))*^FR%der%$s1oi


Tim, agreed that there is a possibility of an issue, but it's extremely rare. How often does one get an end-user noticeable read errors on a PC these days? Pretty infrequent.
I work with hundreds of servers at work, and the incidence of data error is very, very low. And when they do occur, they are caught and the process stops.

The whole point is that even if data correction is happening, it's lossless, unlike CD transports which will quickly revert to a lossy algorithm to fill in. This is due to the isochronous nature of a transports duties. It must deliver the bits in a certain amount of time, so even if they are synthesized, it will do that.
Although, we've all heard the worst case scenario when the transports can't deliver, and we get clicks or silence. But most modern transport will use 8 or more samples for their synthesis, which is pretty good.

The biggest benefit for me, from a qualitative standpoint, is that I now have a repository of my music that is an *exact* replica of what was mastered to the CD’s, therefore I’m not concerned about bit-rot, media scratches, loss, etc.

The added benefits from upsampling or other pre-playback DSP are also a qualitative improvement. Although here, some players will do that for you (the $15K Meridian 800 for instance, which also adds substantial FIFO buffering and re-clocking.

Finally, the clocking of the output signals for lowest jitter is another benefit. Not all transports have great clocks. The higher-end ones do, but on average, they are not in the league of a good pro-card.

Now, all that said, there’s no getting around the need for isochronous output to the processor or DAC. I’ve heard my rig generate some nasty effects when the network glitches and I’m streaming data from the media server. So adequate buffering settings and other mitigation is required to ensure this never (or rarely) occurs. But I’m always guaranteed that my data sequences are correct ;-)
 
Johnathan,

Excellent discussion and witty banter. I appreciate your knowledge and experience in this area, and the civil manner in which these types of discussions can take place with no loss of respect or flame wars. You sir are a gentleman of honor, as many here are as well. What a wonderful forum we have where these types of discussions can take place. I am very proud of the manner in which this community almost always conducts itself. I have learned much from all of you.

So let me ask one more question on this subject and then I'll bow out for a bit. Do all of you Squeezebox users have your bitstreams backed up someplace? I'd want some sort of serious RAID device protecting my music collection in the event of a catastrophic disc crash. I've got almost 78Gigs of music in my iTunes folder and I freak out thinking about re-ripping all of that material. I have it backed up on a USB drive and a directory on the server at work (shhhhhhhh!). That represents probably less that 10% of my total music collection and I freak out about it. I can't imagine what kind of basket case I'd be if there was any possibility that my ENTIRE music collection could be gone in an instant due to either a hardware crash or accidental operator brain fart.
 
I bought a 500 GB WD "MyBook" external USB drive, and automatically back up my ripped FLAC files weekly. So far I've ripped 436 (of >1000) CD's, and definitely don't want to ever do it again! I'm assuming that in another few years, you'll be able to "buy" a TB of online storage space, inexpensively, for the ultimate "off-site" backup.
 
I'm also using a 500gig usb drive to backup files. I also have the originals if I ever really needed to get them again. Like sleepysurf, I don't want to rerip all my cds again so I make sure I backup regularly. It is nice knowing I can rerip them though. :)
 
Oh I've also been thinking seriously about backing up my flacs to DVD. However, at 4.5g per DVD I'm not sure I've got the willpower to do it. :eek:
 
Tim, thanks for the kind words. I always try to ensure discourse is constructive, either educate, entertain or don’t talk is my moto.

I have much to learn still myself, as I frequently find out ;-)

Regarding persistence of the ripped media, right you are that that is a major concern.

To mitigate that here’s the strategy I use:

When ripping, I place all Artist\album folders into a sequence named folder (WavsDVDnn). When that folder reaches 4.2GB. I stop ripping. Copy the contents of that folder onto a DVD-R and store that.
Then I copy the artist\album folders over the network to my media server.

The Media Server is a custom built box I assembled, based around a dual-core processor and has a robust storage subsystem. I used an LSI 6 port SATA RAID card to manage 5 WD RE2 series (raid friendly) 400GB/ea drives. This gives me 1.2TB formatted capacity in a RAID 5 configuration (1.6TB raw + 1 cold spare ). So even if one spindle dies, the system keeps running, and I can engage the spare and not lose any data.

I also use external eSATA drive cage to house twin 500GB drives so I can copy the server contents onto it. This is stored off-site at my sisters home, and refreshed every other month.

So belt and suspenders. Ripping is so much effort, I only ever want to do it once.
 
I also have dual backups now. I was up to nearly 300GB of FLAC when I first decided I needed a backup. I bought a 400GB drive and put it in a USB enclosure and copied all my music to it. Less than 1 week later, the RAID controller died and took both drives with it (I was dumb and was running RAID 0 for more space). Lucky me.

So after that happened, I built this PC and made it a habit to have dual backups. One USB drive mirroring the FLAC drive. And I do DVDR as well. The only pain was doing the first batch of DVDRs. I had like 65 or something I did within a few days. But now hopefully I wont lose it all. I also started burning CDs of each album too....mostly for the car...but its also another backup I guess in a way....

So I guess the moral of this story is backup backup backup. :) You can never have too many redundancies.
 
When I decided to go into this digital music domain stuff a few months ago, I did a bunch of research and decided to pick up an Infrant ReadyNAS. The server with 4 hot-swap, 320GB disks only ran a little over $900 and is almost completely turnkey. Its RAID-5, a little under a tarabyte of usable storage, has all of the OS and Slimserver support in firmware that automatically loads onto the disks when you add them, and has full backup options over my home gigabit network. In addition to the RAID-5, I run backups onto a 250GB disk on one of the other computers on the network, which only cost me about $75 to pick up. I also periodically run a backup to another disk, and put it in my safety deposit box. (I've been in the computer field for almost 40 years, and one of the things I try and teach the folks I train is "A single copy of anything is not a backup". ;) )
 
When I decided to go into this digital music domain stuff a few months ago, I did a bunch of research and decided to pick up an Infrant ReadyNAS. The server with 4 hot-swap, 320GB disks only ran a little over $900 and is almost completely turnkey. Its RAID-5, a little under a tarabyte of usable storage, has all of the OS and Slimserver support in firmware that automatically loads onto the disks when you add them, and has full backup options over my home gigabit network. In addition to the RAID-5, I run backups onto a 250GB disk on one of the other computers on the network, which only cost me about $75 to pick up. I also periodically run a backup to another disk, and put it in my safety deposit box. (I've been in the computer field for almost 40 years, and one of the things I try and teach the folks I train is "A single copy of anything is not a backup". ;) )

I wish I called a $50 saving "on sale" - I opened this thread thinking i'd see it half-price or something!

Oh well, I guess the squeezebox is going to have to wait. Not sure whether that is a good thing or not - I've got all my tunes on an old IBM server with a stack of smallish disks in it that I use to sync my iPod. For now, I've been connecting the iPod to the system when I want to access playlists, etc, but I would love the convenience of a squeezebox.

Given, I'm not sure if it would create more trouble than it's worth. I mean - when is all this computer stuff going to get reliable and easy to use? Why should I keep more than a "single" backup - or any backup at all for that matter - I don't back up my LPs and CDs - why with all this supposed technology should I have to back it up. I just wish all those boffins would stop adding functionality to technology and actually get what we have working properly!!
 
great discussion guys.... As a Squeezebox owner I also have a 600G external backup drive and have a copy of all my CDs on it. Ripping all of my CDs is NOT something I would like to do.

As far as the quality thing (CD vs SB), even a lossless format sounds slightly degraded compared to a CD played on my system. My CD player is pretty standard compared to alot of you guys out there, and that brings up the question:

If you rip a CD using a lossless format and then use the Squeezebox wirelessly, is there any difference between having the SB hard wired to your network?

I've never done that, but would be interested to know if there are sonic advantages to having the SB hard wired into your network.
 
If you rip a CD using a lossless format and then use the Squeezebox wirelessly, is there any difference between having the SB hard wired to your network?

Assuming you aren't having bandwith problems and can't keep a full buffer, it shouldn't matter. All the data is sent via TCP both wired and wireless. IIRC all TCP data packets have a 16bit checksum attached. While not as good as a CRC, its more than sufficient to ensure that either way the data gets there exactly as intended.
 
Assuming you aren't having bandwith problems and can't keep a full buffer, it shouldn't matter. All the data is sent via TCP both wired and wireless. IIRC all TCP data packets have a 16bit checksum attached. While not as good as a CRC, its more than sufficient to ensure that either way the data gets there exactly as intended.


Absolutely right. I mean, that's how our financial records get moved around the data centers and sent to us when looking at them online. Any errors there would not 'sound' good to me ;)
 
Does anyone offer a similiar device that allows the use of a local PC/HTPC as a dedicated music server? I acquired a few PC's with large drives and was thinking of making a server out of one of them but need a front end to control it all. The squeezebox is certainly affordable but is there an easier way to do this?

T-
 
Easier in what way? The easiest thing to do is just take the audio out from the computer into an input! It won't sound so great though. Unless you get a good soundcard or USB DAC.
 
Easier in what way? The easiest thing to do is just take the audio out from the computer into an input! It won't sound so great though. Unless you get a good soundcard or USB DAC.

When I mentioned 'easy' I wasnt looking to skimp on audio quality. The squeezebox streams audio over a network, but in case where the server is in the same rack as the rest of the equipment (and you dont want a keyboard/mouse/monitor), is there something more appropriate to front-end the PC?

T-
 
When I mentioned 'easy' I wasnt looking to skimp on audio quality. The squeezebox streams audio over a network, but in case where the server is in the same rack as the rest of the equipment (and you dont want a keyboard/mouse/monitor), is there something more appropriate to front-end the PC?

T-

I've never tried it, but I'd imagine you could use a single network cable with the send/receive wires reversed (these are commonly used for dsl/cable modems) to connect server to squeezebox. Give them both fixed IP addresses and you'd be good to go I think.

Alternatively, you could also get an IR receiver for the PC to control a player. You'd have to do some research on this one (I haven't done this one either).

If you have a laptop you could use VNC to control the server and just use the soundcard out or a USB dac.

Lots of options here, but not really anything I've tried. Personally, I would just get the squeezebox unless you are really into fiddling with computers. :) Its nice to get the PC fans out of the audio area too!
 
There's a firefly remote that allows you to control the PC, though it's hard to see what you've got playing, as it's just a regular remote. Works for music, movies, etc. It's cheap and effective, if you just want to be able to stop, play, and randomly skip music tracks, without really knowing what's coming up next, or being able to hop to particular songs.


I think Microsoft makes a remote that shows you what's playing, and what's in your playlist, etc....not sure though. Then your sound output can go throgh a high quality sound card, usb or otherwise, and then digital out to a dac. Or just through a usb dac (as seen in another thread) Squeezebox with an external dac seems like a good way to go though. You shouldn't get any data loss by having a wireless connection, as I believe CD quality sound is around 1MB/s and 802.11g networks are around 54Mb/s (which is around 7MB/s) so should have no problem streaming even uncompressed .wav files, much less compressed audio.
 

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