Spire/Summit off axis?

[JonFo]

...
I would have not described the requests as dynamic until the biamp setup, so I would definitely say they need some power (but also finesse) behind them.

Totally agree, any speaker needs lots of reserve power to sound good, but an ESL needs it even more.
Biamping is a great way to achieve that with ML's

 

[DrJRapp]

Last night I was playing Van Morrison at SPLs that had my teen age daughter complaining from the other side of the house.

Good power and a pair of Summits is my recommendation in a large room with high ceilings. Alternately a pair of Spires and a good sub should do the trick. I'm not sure you will be satisfied with the Vantage in terms of pure SPL.

The Spire (as well as the Vantage) has one less woofer than the Summit...but more importantly, one less 200 wpc amp and although its one woofer can be driven to near Summit level SPL, the trade-off is higher distortion.

 

[DrJRapp]

Totally agree, any speaker needs lots of reserve power to sound good, but an ESL needs it even more.
Biamping is a great way to achieve that with ML's

With then Vantage, Summit and Spire you are already technically bi-amping due to their internal ice amps. The signal you feed to the low end is for informational purposes only, so upping the power to the woofs doesn't accomplish anything.

However that is a completely different case with the mids and highs. I've played my Summits with the Rotel RB 1080 that I used to play my RF7s with. They sounded fine, and did what they were asked to do. However, when I switched to a pair of Aragon Palladiums (600 wpc @ 4ohms) the whole setup sounded much larger, less compressed and cleaner at high spl, as would be anticipated.

My audio listening room opens up to the outside with a set of sliding doors that pull back and create a 12 ft wide by 8 ft tall opening to the outside pool screened dome area that is 50x60x 24 ft high. I can rock the pool area with the Summits and all that power.

 

[repman]

Last night I was playing Van Morrison at SPLs that had my teen age daughter complaining from the other side of the house.

Good power and a pair of Summits is my recommendation in a large room with high ceilings. Alternately a pair of Spires and a good sub should do the trick. I'm not sure you will be satisfied with the Vantage in terms of pure SPL.

The Spire (as well as the Vantage) has one less woofer than the Summit...but more importantly, one less 200 wpc amp and although its one woofer can be driven to near Summit level SPL, the trade-off is higher distortion.

was she complaining about the volume or the fact it was Van Morrison most teens I know would not be into Van the Man ( one of my favorites by the way)

I agree with everyone here that say ML's can rock they sure can

as JonFo pointed out I was astounded at the dynamics of his system you need a large amount of power to really make them sing

 

[Rich]

you need a large amount of power to really make them sing

Agreed. The only times I have heard rock music sound compressed on my Logans was when they were driven with inadequate power. You can "get by" with a low-powered amp on Logans on music that isn't too complex, but if you want to rock or play really complex classical music loudly, then you must have sufficient power reserves. Otherwise, you get compression.

Having said that . . . the best off-axis sound I have ever heard coming from Logans was at a dealer where they were being driven by a low-powered Jolida tube amp. The sound was highly euphonic, but very pleasing throughout the entire store.

 

[macallan]

Good to hear that the Logans can rock with enough power, why do the McIntosh 501s not do the trick?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Mac,

My 2 pennies.

No issue at all with rock music. The problem, when the volume is too high, is that the room gets overloaded. At 90 to 95db peaks, no problem.

Regarding your off axis question, I have the "center" chair and a recliner, which is located to the right of the right speaker. I listen in this recliner alot and the listening experience is quite enjoyable.

Regarding JonFo's statement about listening to something at 105db, that's self destructive and will clearly damage your ears.

Who flippin cares how clean it sounds if it's going to destroy your hearing. I certainly don't.

Also, most classical music in the symphony hall rarely exceeds 90db. And yes, Led Zep, Pink Floyd, Yes, etc. sound awesome.

GG

 

[JonFo]

...

Regarding JonFo's statement about listening to something at 105db, that's self destructive and will clearly damage your ears.

Who flippin cares how clean it sounds if it's going to destroy your hearing. I certainly don't.

Also, most classical music in the symphony hall rarely exceeds 90db. And yes, Led Zep, Pink Floyd, Yes, etc. sound awesome.

GG

Gordon, We need to distinguish between max and average.

The reason for wanting a system that can play up to 105 dB SPL is that's the defined reference max for movies.

Likewise, orchestral climaxes can reach >100dB live, not for long, but you want that headroom for realistic playback.

Well mixed Rock (like Porcupine Tree) has wide dynamic range with significant peaks.

I rarely listen to the system at full reference, I value my hearing. But if your system can't handle reference cleanly, then I've found the overall quality and experience to be diminished.

My average listening level is well below 90 dB SPL, and usually in the low 80's.

So if listening to something with a +15dB dynamic range above avg, and playing at 85dB, the system will be asked to hit 100+. That takes a bunch of power in my experience.

And ever since my system gained Audyssey Dynamic EQ, I can listen at even lower average levels than before. Love that feature.

 

[JonFo]

...
No issue at all with rock music. The problem, when the volume is too high, is that the room gets overloaded. At 90 to 95db peaks, no problem.
...

Totally agree. Most rooms can't take a large line-source outputting huge SPL.

The room resonances and ringing is overwhelming. Even in my custom-sized room designed for my ML's, I could never play as loud as now due to resonances, and the high-frequency ringing was painful.

But with the right amount of treatments, all's good now. The combo of the room and system can support very loud playback without driving one crazy.

You'll still go deaf if you play too loud for too long, but at least the peaks are well handled

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the clarification and your comments on "head room" are spot on.

Gordon

 

[Gordon]

Jonathan and Gordon, thanks for your postings! Perhaps my room is responsible for the poor opinion of R&R I have. I never considered the room overloading or some of the other variables you both mention.

Gordon