Speaker-cables & ESL’s; low-capacitance - coax???

[TjeerT]

Hi, new here;
but last year, because of the CLX en Summit X, I visited this nice forum very often!

After listening 6 years (1990-1996) to the Sequel II and now almost 13 years to my very lovely SL3’s, I was in for a speaker-upgrade and have ordered the new Summit X; I hope to have them next month.

As you see I don’t often change gear (my clear 20 year old Mark Levinson no23 is, after a recent serious revision, still going strong, as is my ML 390S); much more I like playing with room-tuning and f.e. power-conditioning.

Jim Smith’s last book (“Get Better Sound”) had some essential tips for me that improved the music-experience in my (dedicated) room so much, I’m sure I hadn’t reached with 10k or even more dollars new gear.
Another recent very, very nice upgrade was with the "acoustic system" resonators from mr. Franck Tchang. Really a wonder the difference it made with this little cups…


Now to topic.

When the Summit X’s have played for some weeks, I think they deserve new cables, so I want to upgrade the, 12 year-old, MIT MH-750 ‘s I use now.

My friendly hifi-dealer (btw, he is the only official CLX-dealer in my country) advises to try Transparant, Cardas or one of two other branches.

Of course, I 'm gonna listen to this cables in my system.
My interconnect is a Cardas Golden Cross, so I expect there will be at least a match with the (same) Cardas spk-cable.

But then, I surfed a bit around and got confused…

F.e. I read the white paper from Roger Sanders: http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com:80/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=130

and there was a topic here on the forum about “best” cables for ESL’s:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~t...sanders+sound+system+ESL+Speaker+Cable&page=2

Specially mr “nsgarch” (echoing Roger Sanders, and as he said audio engineers as Jon Risch and the fellows at Purist Audio Design) was very sure about esl's and the "must" of speakercables with (very) low capacitance-figures (less than 30 - 40 pF) and not to go for multi-stranded audio cables as Cardas, MIT, Transparant, Audioquest, etc.
(A bit strange that he didn’t really like the Roger Sanders spk-cables specially made for ESL’s: “… Roger uses a coaxial design, but it sounds dry to me…” ).

But I had a question to answer:
Not go for Cardas or Transparant or the other ‘multi-stranded’??
Or at least should I also listen to low-capacitance - coax cables?
And than what branches? Where to get this kind of cables?

Also, I was curious about the opinion from the people/engineers from f.e. Cardas and Transparant.
So I sent them an e-mail, where I summarised the above and the low capacitance- coax theory, and asked them:

“Do you think your 'top' & reference cables are not arranged for ESL's?”.

Really, within a couple of hours (…I like so much world-wide-web…) I got an answer from George Cardas.
I guess some of you are interested in his answer (no problem for George, I asked him, that I used his comment for this topic):


“….Yes I can see the problem here but it is not exactly the cable, - Electro stats in general present a wild impedance curve and many amps, particularly solid state amps, simply choke on the load a high frequencies so going to a smaller, low capacitance speaker cable might make things easier on the amp certainly a speaker that dips below an ohm at 20k combined with a long Golden Cross cable could overwhelm a less than studly solid state amp
and kill the high end. But the amp would probably be marginal with any reasonably low impedance cable, using a high impedance coax or something might well fix the problem but but it would not necessarily be the right cable if you amp was up to the job.

I have shown with Martin Logans on several occasion notably when our room won "best sound in the show" at the San Francisco stereophile show using ML Statements, VTL amps and Golden Reference Speaker cable.
Or when we won "Best sound in the show" at the Los Angles Stereophile show with Martin Logan in a similar setup using Golden Cross speaker cable etc.
That said because of the impedance swings, the ideal situation is a cable with low and constant impedance given the amp is up to it. Given an amp not capable of handling the load.
The Cross cable is in fact an excellent choice it is actually design for this situation exactly.


I hope this answers you question?

Thanks for the excellent FAQ!

thanks
George

………”

Also a quick answer from Demos Dadiotes from Transparant (also no problem to quote him here):

“………

Hi,

Thanks for the inquiry and all of that information. What we have found is that ultra low capacitance cables do not sound realistic, and tend to sound bright, thin and un-involving. This is really the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

There are many things that contribute to good cable design and great sound. These include controlling the relative level of inductance and capacitance, and limiting bandwidth (we roll off the response above 1 MHz) so that the cable does not become an antenna for RF noise. There is also what I like to call the cable recipe. This would be the oxygen free copper, dielectrics, twisted pair geometry, strand size, vibration dampening, connectors, and last but not least, the network. The stranding in most of our cables is actually heavy stranding. This helps with delivering mid and low level dynamics, and helps eliminate the bright edginess that some cables have.

We have had Martin Logan, Quad, and Magnepan speaker in the Transparent sound room at one time or another. I can assure you there are no issues other than great sound associated with our cables. I also have a customer I regularly speak with that just completed his system cabling at the Opus level. He is using the large Quads in his system and loves it. I encourage you to audition our cables. They are designed through much listening to sound natural and real. I am confident you will hear the difference.

Sincerely,

Demos Dadiotes
Lab Technician / Customer Care
Transparent Audio, Inc.
…………”

Of course, I didn’t expect to get an answer: “our cables are not arranged …”, etc.

But their comments helped me to get a bit less confused!! :music:

And still curious:
Some ESL’s-owners here that compared the different kind of speaker-cables, specially the “multi-stranded” versus the “low-capacitance - coax” cables?
And what line?


Thnx!

 

[Gordon Gray]

HI TT and welcome.

Many previous posts on this issue.

Use the search function, find a comfortable chair, and get ready to read.

Best strategy, once you narrow your search down to a few brands, is to arrange for an in home / money back audition.

That's realistically the only way you can determine what sounds best to you. Too many variables to make an informed decision without an in home audition.

Good luck.

GG

 

[Rich]

Hi and welcome to the site. I agree with Gordon. There is only one right answer to your question . . . and that is to make your decision based on an in-home audition of various cables once your Summit X's are broken in. The perfect cable for your application will depend on the synergy of your components, your room acoustics, and your own listening preferences. Only by auditioning a variety of cables can you really know what works best for you.

Personally, I use the Signal Cable Silver Resolution Reference Speaker Cables and love them. They have a capacitance of about 18.1 pF/foot.

But every system is different and everyone's tastes are different. So, while all the information you can read, and opinions like Roger Sanders' are valuable, they are no substitute for your own ears. Good luck with it.

 

[David Matz]

Uh oh, another cable thread!


Kudos for contacting the manufacturers. Personally, I agree with their comments. I would stay away from the " engineers' " comments, like those made by NSGARCH and Sanders. These guys believe that everything known about audio sound reproduction is already out there. Any other factors that may impact sound just don't exist to these guys. Many others, my self included, strongly disagree, since all of the equipment does not sound the same and there is no one global brand. To me, Sanders' electronics sound a bit thin and bright, and one of the manufacturers in your correspondence predicts this. (Sanders speakers are AMAZING, however.) My opinions, only, of course!

Rich and Gordon are right on the money. The best thing is to try yourself.

Good Luck!

 

[Rich]

To me, Sanders' electronics sound a bit thin and bright, and one of the manufacturers in your correspondence predicts this. (Sanders speakers are AMAZING, however.) My opinions, only, of course!

David, I understand that this is based on the comparison you guys did between several different amps and I understand that it may have sounded that way to you in that system compared to the other amps you auditioned.

But I promise you that if you heard my system, with Sanders' monoblocs powering my Summits, fed by the Ref 3 and the Marantz SA11-S1 and Signal Cables' Silver Resolution Series cables in my well-treated room, the last thing you would think is thin and bright. Neutral, yes. Certainly not overly warm and romantic. But accurate up and down the frequency spectrum, deep and involving, and not in the least bit thin or bright. This despite the reputation of silver-based cables to sound thin and bright.

Likewise, in my second system, Sanders' preamp is feeding my Pass Labs X350.5, and the sound is actually a tad warm and very involving.

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I just wanted to point out that Sanders electronics do not necessarily sound thin and bright. It all depends on system synergy. Interestingly, I didn't prefer the combination of Sanders amps with his preamp. That combination was a little too bright for me. But with the Ref 3, the amps sound great. And with the Pass Labs amp, the preamp sounds great. Note that I have never tried Sanders' Cables and can't comment on them.

And I'm with you . . . I think the engineers are only seeing one small part of the puzzle. Most of them would poo poo the idea that there is such a thing as "system synergy."

 

[MiTT]

And I'm with you . . . I think the engineers are only seeing one small part of the puzzle. Most of them would poo poo the idea that there is such a thing as "system synergy."

Or that cables can have a "sound" at all. As you all know, I am not in that camp.

 

[kach22i]

an answer from George Cardas.
...............Electro stats in general present a wild impedance curve and many amps, particularly solid state amps, simply choke on the load a high frequencies

Interesting, I'm late to seeing this thread, but it's good stuff.

 

[Tosh]

Did you run into Nelson Pass' old paper on speaker cables?
Pass Labs article index

 

[twich54]

But I promise you that if you heard my system,the last thing you would think is thin and bright. Neutral, yes. Certainly not overly warm and romantic.

yeah but Rich when you crank up your "Barbie" TT it brings 'romantic' to another level.......... sorry my friend, I couldn't resist ! :devil:

 

[TomDac]

yeah but Rich when you crank up your "Barbie" TT it brings 'romantic' to another level.......... sorry my friend, I couldn't resist ! :devil:

:ROFL:

ROFL!!! good one, Dave!

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I would recommend either Kimber Kable or Nordost. I have been using 8TC with WBT terminations for several years with my Martin Logans and could not be happier.

Nordost also makes an excellent cable. Their Blue Heaven cable is an excellent price/performance ratio cable.
Cheers,
ML

 

[grantc79]

Honestly,

I'm not here to start a fight but I would recommend seriously hooking up two different kinds of cables and seeing if you can even tell a difference.

There are a ton of studies out there that show that using blind testing people cannot tell a difference between interconnects or cables.

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm

There are a ton of people out there who consider high dollar interconnects and speaker cables to simply be audio jewelry.

At the very least man if there is anything else you could possibly upgrade in your setup be it a pre-amp, amp, dac, room treatments, or anything else then upgrade all of that first.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Unlike conventional speakers, Electrostatic Speakers do have certain characteristics which make certain cables not compatible.

Cables are always a contentious issue, but here you will find the vast majority of members here are using something a little bit better than lamp cord.

 

[grantc79]

Unlike conventional speakers, Electrostatic Speakers do have certain characteristics which make certain cables not compatible.

Cables are always a contentious issue, but here you will find the vast majority of members here are using something a little bit better than lamp cord.

Understandable and I agree that electrostatics are a lot more revealing than any conventional type of speaker.

That said you can get very high quality cables from blue jean cables for example at a very reasonable price.

While they might do better with more than lamp cords (which is honestly also arguable) that doesn't mean that 10,000 dollar speaker cables are necessary.

I mean can anyone really justify this?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1259431233&/Audio-Note-Sogon80

Here's a thought....

The Transparent Rep:

Thanks for the inquiry and all of that information. What we have found is that ultra low capacitance cables do not sound realistic, and tend to sound bright, thin and un-involving. This is really the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

There are many things that contribute to good cable design and great sound. These include controlling the relative level of inductance and capacitance, and limiting bandwidth (we roll off the response above 1 MHz) so that the cable does not become an antenna for RF noise. There is also what I like to call the cable recipe. This would be the oxygen free copper, dielectrics, twisted pair geometry, strand size, vibration dampening, connectors, and last but not least, the network. The stranding in most of our cables is actually heavy stranding. This helps with delivering mid and low level dynamics, and helps eliminate the bright edginess that some cables have.

Ask him for frequency charts showing which cables are bright and edgy and which aren't.

Then demo those two types of speaker cables against one another and measure the frequency response from the two cables and see if he really is right. Would you put in any less effort when buying a car or any other high end purchase where two products are actually measurable?

That makes a hell of a lot more sense and is actually being a good consumer rather than just accepting what he tells you.

 

[RichTeer]

I'm not here to start a fight but I would recommend seriously hooking up two different kinds of cables and seeing if you can even tell a difference.

There are a ton of studies out there that show that using blind testing people cannot tell a difference between interconnects or cables.

With respect, have you actually tried your own experiment? One doesn't need blind listening tests to hear differences between cables, just a reasonable calibre of system, a good recording, a pair of ears, and an open mind. Granted, some differences are subtle, but others are like night and day.

 

[wallacefl]

With respect, have you actually tried your own experiment? One doesn't need blind listening tests to hear differences between cables, just a reasonable calibre of system, a good recording, a pair of ears, and an open mind. Granted, some differences are subtle, but others are like night and day.

I have ...with a little help from "friends" got to compare several different makes ...from at the low end...Parts Express up to 1k$/meter ...Placette preamp to Conrad Johnson premier 350 to SL3s...no difference ...bought the DH labs demos anyway because ACI had them on sale at the time...good terminations and look sturdy.

 

[kach22i]

I have ...with a little help from "friends" got to compare several different makes ...from at the low end...Parts Express up to 1k$/meter ...Placette preamp to Conrad Johnson premier 350 to SL3s...no difference ...bought the DH labs demos anyway because ACI had them on sale at the time...good terminations and look sturdy.

I hear a difference just because the connection gets cleaned when swapping out speaker wires and interconnects.

I hear even more of a difference between different speaker wires and interconnects.

I can say, that if you can't hear a difference then don't spend the money.

If I can't taste the difference between a $10 bottle of wine and a $60 bottle of wine, I'd be a fool to spend the extra money. Some people will spend the extra money just to impress others, but that's another issue altogether.

 

[grantc79]

With respect, have you actually tried your own experiment? One doesn't need blind listening tests to hear differences between cables, just a reasonable calibre of system, a good recording, a pair of ears, and an open mind. Granted, some differences are subtle, but others are like night and day.

Yup I have.

I listened to everything from SL3's, Summits, high end line arrays, B&W 802 D's, and even some higher end Von Schweikert lines using various cables.

I literally could not tell a difference in any of them.

Now I have met many owners of those who claim they could tell the difference but that is a given considering the placebo effect. The same results happen when a kid adds a large tailpipe to the back of his Honda, etc, etc.

Either way, I have yet to see a single speaker cable company step forward and offer frequency response charts showing how these silver cables sound different than these copper ones and be willing to submit their stuff to double blind testing.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I certainly do not advocate spending silly money on cables. Kimber Kable, which I use, is relatively affordable. Founder Ray Kimber worked managing a Sound and Lighting Company back in the age of Disco. He found that with all of the lights and equipment, the wires were acting as an antenna.

With much experimentation, he found that braiding cable in a specific way banished the interference letting the sound come through. Even got a patent for it I believe.

WBT Locking Banana connectors assure rock solid connections which makes it next to impossible for the cables to come loose. The interconnect lock in a similar way as well. Given what can happen if cables are accidentally shorted, having connectors that are virtually immune to accidental dislodging is worth the extra price.

Again, to each their own, but I do believe having stable connections to your equipment is worth the investment. Especially with expensive equipment.
Cheers,
ML

 

[tonepub]

I currently use Shunyata interconnects (aurora) and speaker cable (Stratos SP), but used to use Cardas Golden Reference before that with excellent results.

I've tried Transparent on numerous occasions and have found it to be anything but "transparent", it always seems to round off the edges of the music.

But as a few people have suggested, a trial is essential in your system. The folks at Music Direct carry quite a few different things and offer a 30 day money back offer, so that might be a place to start.

If you have a good dealer in your area that will let you take some cable home for the weekend, that's a good idea too.

Don't buy any more than you can hear a diff!