Speaker Cable Questions

[andrew.hendler]

After living with the ML Expression 13As for 6 months, and finally getting my Pass Int 60 a month or so ago, I am enjoying my system immensely.

As Streamer/Dac/Amp/Speakers are really maximized, I've take a look at finding the perfect speaker cable.

First a question:

As I have been swapping in and out cable more frequently then I typically would, is it necessary to unplug the Martin Logans, (I am obviously turning off the Pass amp). My thought is yes, since there are amps in the subs - but I may be being overcautious and it's a big PITA.

I know talking cable is always contentious, and it's not my intention to convert anyone that doesn't believe cables make a difference - but I certainly do. In fact, I was astonished at how much I could hear the difference cables make due to the resolution of the ESLs. In regards to cables I tried, until I got all components set up, I was just using bulk Snap AV OFC cable. Since, I've tried a number of entry-mid level audiophile brands (Nordost and Moon Audio), as well as pro cable: Mogami, Belkin.

To my ears, the Nordost and even Belkin are too bright, so I've eliminated them. In terms of Mogami, I've tried both 3082 and 3103. The Moon Audio Cable (Black Dragon), is quite good - as it adds a touch of warmth and the vocals sound eerily "in the room" good. That said, I keep coming back to the Mogami 3103, as it's more neutral. If I predominantly listened to vocal oriented music, the black dragon would be the clear winner - but I listen to a lot of jazz, and the extra relative little bit of sparkle on the Mogami 3103 is appreciated. The 3103 is high quality pro cable, but inexpensive, and I got it custom built at Performance Audio.

So it's down to the Black Dragon and the Mogami 3103. Both are pure copper; the Black Dragon is OCC and the Mogami is OFC. I am going to spend another week or so listening to both before I make a decision. My gut is telling me that it's going to end up being the Mogami and here's why: The Pass Labs and ML13, backed by my Chord Dave/M Scaler is so good - it really benefits from the cable that sounds most like nothing. The 3103 is dead neutral and absolutely nothing is added and nothing is missing. The Black Dragon is sweeter, and as a result the treble is pushed back a little more. I have used the black dragon cable on headphones with great success and really like it's sound signature. That being said, as mentioned, I think with a setup this good already - the 3103 might be the winner. But, before I make that decision - I need significantly more time with the Black Dragon speaker cable as I have only had a short time to listen to it.

For those that have tired both pro and audiophile brands - what ended up being your preference? I'm curious if others have found that with ESLs, pro cable is the best solution.

Incidentally, I am using Belden 1800f for my XLR interconnects. I have to do a fairly long XLR run from DAC to Integrated Amp - and in addition to audiophile cables being prohibitively expensive at that length, I wanted the lowest capacitance pro cable I could find - to ensure I don't experience high end role off, and it was either that or Mogami. I bought the Belden as I got it from Blue Jeans Cables, but may consider replacing it with Mogami 2594 if I end up settling on the 3103 speaker cables, to have a fully Mogami signal path.

 

[ttocs]

After buying my first ML ESL, I found myself trying different amps and processors in an attempt to be satisfied. After getting the right amp and processor, I was happy, kinda. Next it was speaker cables. To date, I've enjoyed DIY cables the most.

Metallurgy aside, it's cable design that'll change the sound of the system.

About 9 years ago I compared a bunch cable types. One set on loan from a dealer for a long 4 day weekend, a couple on loan from a friend for the rest of that month, and others I already had. Most were AudioQuest cables, and the range in price was up to $1800 in 2013 dollars. At the time, I owned 3 of the cables that ranged up to $220.

I found that the more expensive the cable, the less treble there was (I later found out that the more expensive cables had more capacitance), and regular star quad design was the least offensive sounding. At the end of that month I ended up being happiest with DIY and made my own using 14/4 speaker wire.

Most of this year I've been using a twisted pair of solid core 12AWG electrical wire. I ended up with this after incorporating AntiCables ZERO Autoformers that I bought specifically for my tube amps but found I liked what they did for the Krell amp.

Now, today, I'm shopping for amps. My Krell is dead, and I've got my eye keenly on a Krell Duo 300 XD at the moment.

So, when a new amp is in place I'll go through this process again. I may borrow some cables from the dealer I'm most likely going to be working with so I can have another opportunity to compare.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Andrew, greetings from down unda.

Very nice combination there btw, Expression 13A's partnered with the Pass Labs INT60, really tops!

With regards to cables, you're definitely on the right track! Reading through your post, you mention neutrality and cables getting out of the way, not adding to anything... basically no colorations. This should be the main focus and this is where many get it wrong, sort of the other way round.

Cabling solutions should be as neutral as possible, allowing more of the music to flow, where you will hear even further detail of the recording. Especially with ML stats, you will hear all the inner detail, provided it's on the recording. Cables are really important in achieving that fine balance of detail & musicality. Some cables can enhance these areas, whereas others may even mask or alter the tonality and definition altogether. So it's not an easy task identifying which cables are best.

In order to determine that, only you / the owner can be the judge of that, where it's your system, your ears, your preference, your type of sound. What reviews say or what we prefer can only be taken as guidelines, based on what brands and types of cable design we have installed in our personal reference systems.

One thing though I have experienced over the decades is, if you're installing a particular type of cable / brand start with good quality interconnects at the source and work your way upwards... ending at the amplifier. With speaker cables, I've found that using a version of higher quality than the rest really pays off, simply because this is where the signal ends, at your speakers and onto your listening area.

When there's good quality from source to preamp or main amplifier and then onto the speakers, using a much higher quality cable from amp to speaker interface has always provided better results, in my experience.

I've come across a few systems where the owners have over spent on interconnects and power cords and then ran short of budget on speaker cables. So they placed in average cables just to make a connection. However, when I advised them to try it the other way round, they were truly amazed! And so, nearly all of them decided to end with higher quality cables at the speaker end. Fantastic results!

Why I stated "nearly all..." just one chap didn't want to try it, since he didn't believe in it and was adamant that his power cords and speaker cables were good enough, and that he's not spending one more penny on better speaker cables. Ok! No worries mate, enjoy!

Like I said, it's a personal preference. So not everyone's convinced...

Hope my 50cts worth was helpful... Oh! And don't omit power cords, they also contribute to that level of total synergy and fine resolution! ML stats deserve the best, that you can afford of course.

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[andrew.hendler]

Interesting! Thank you both for your comments.

ttocs - I hear the Audioquest line the same way - though I haven't gone quite as high up the ladder as you in terms of what I've tried. I have King Cobra Interconnects in my headphone system - as that gave me the tone I want. I always use Mogami Gold Interconnects as a baseline, as I know they are pretty flat. The King Cobra are definitely warmer. Appreciate that you ended up going the DIY route. I haven't soldered a cable in 20 years - though it might be a fun project to try and build my own. That said, Performance Audio made me a really nice version of Mogami 3103 with the exact connectors, tech flex, cable pants, etc I wanted, price was great, and I don't think I could make a cable that looks that nice myself (at least not yet!)

Big Dog RJ - Completely agree with your assessment. I came to 2-Channel after being a headphone guy for many years, and, similarly, the headphone cable makes the biggest difference in my headphone setup. With speaker cable, I've learned - at least with the MLs - this effect is even more pronounced. I don't know if it's because the cable is carrying more power, that the MLs are extremely resolving, or a combination of both - but it has been eye opening. I had told my dealer to recommend a decent but inexpensive cable - so started out with Nordost White Leif speaker cables - but didn't like them at all. I kept telling myself that it shouldn't make that big a difference, but it did - and I actually liked the bulk SnapAV cable better - which led me down this road. I've focused on pure copper cables because that's what I've tended to like in other scenarios.

Regarding interconnects, I definitely hear the contributions they make; in fact, interconnects were the first time I heard cable: prior - I wasn't sure cables had any effect whatsoever. I do hear much more of a change with RCA interconnects than balanced XLR; not sure of the reason - but I would assume it's probably because of the noise cancellation properties. I did Belden 1800f XLRs with this setup, as mentioned, because it's a 20 foot run - but may change it up in the future.

Transparently, I also hear differences in digital cable between source and DAC. I thought this was crazy, but especially with USB cables, there is something going on with the amount of noise the cable let's in, and - depending on the DAC - the resulting noise/RFI the DAC has to contend with, making the audio either have more glare or be more natural. Crazy, I know - but there is definitely something going on with digital cables - and I feel like some do a better job of keeping out noise.

In terms of power cords, I am running Nordost Red Dawn to speakers and amp and am pretty happy with them. I think I may like Nordost power cords vs their signal cable offerings because they are pure copper, though the speaker cables definitely make a much more significant contribution to the sound, based on what I can hear.

Incidentally, I am actually starting to gravitate a bit back to the Moon Audio Black Dragon after listening to it a bit longer. It pulls off this nifty trick of being exceptionally smooth, while not sacrificing anything substantial from a presence standpoint: particularly the upper mids. The treble is all there - it's just not quite as in your face - and I may determine that it is a better cable to live with long term. It has a touch of warmth, but really - only a touch. As mentioned, I need to give both these cable some more time - so I can determine what I like best. At this point, I have a good understanding of what both types of cables do, it's more a question of how they sound across all the genres I listed to, and if I want that touch of warmth or complete neutrality in long term listening. I wouldn't say the Mogami 3103 has glare, but it's brutally honest - which may not sound optimal depending on the recording. I can listen to the Black Dragon for hours with zero fatigue - yet is still very neutral/natural. The Mogami is 100% neutral, it's just a question if I can handle the complete unadulterated truth! Will update the thread with the direction I ultimately go, but for now - time to do some more listening!

Thanks again, all!

 

[jtucker]

I have a somewhat similar set up. Pass Labs INT-150 with ML Montis. I am currently using DIY Mogami W3082 cables. I thought the change was subtle (at best) from my previous speaker cables, but I have kept them in my system now for a couple years. As you are no doubt aware, the coax characteric inductance is low and well suited to drive ESLs. Roger Sanders used that w3082 for his cables. Why did you prefer W3103?

 

[andrew.hendler]

I have a somewhat similar set up. Pass Labs INT-150 with ML Montis. I am currently using DIY Mogami W3082 cables. I thought the change was subtle (at best) from my previous speaker cables, but I have kept them in my system now for a couple years. As you are no doubt aware, the coax characteric inductance is low and well suited to drive ESLs. Roger Sanders used that w3082 for his cables. Why did you prefer W3103?

Thanks for detailing your experience. I actually got the 3082 first, and like them quite a bit. In my system at least, the main difference is the 3103 is more extended in the treble, and the presence region was pushed back a bit on some recordings with the 3082. In general the 3082 has a bit of a warmer tilt to me at least. Mogami is pro cable so they don’t have a million offerings, but the 3103 and 3104 are their “top of the line” offerings. Not that this makes them better, per se. Difference in price is due entirely to construction. The 3103 is significantly thicker, lower gauge - so more copper. Same conductor though.

The 3103 gauge is probably overkill - but maybe the sound differences are the result of the extra gauge with the 4 ohm MLs. I would give the 3103 or 3104 cables a try if you like Mogami, as they are more expensive than the 3082, however, they are relatively so inexpensive anyway - it’s worth a test even with custom built cables. My fully custom cables with tech flex, speaker pants, and high quality banana plugs was about $130 for the pair from Performance Audio.

Edit: if you are doing them DIY, they’ll be even more inexpensive

 

[BigGuy]

I would strongly recommend auditioning one of the Anticables offerings. Just like the Pass and ML, a marriage made in heaven, IMHO. YMMV

 

[ejspain]

After living with the ML Expression 13As for 6 months, and finally getting my Pass Int 60 a month or so ago, I am enjoying my system immensely.

As Streamer/Dac/Amp/Speakers are really maximized, I've take a look at finding the perfect speaker cable.

First a question:

As I have been swapping in and out cable more frequently then I typically would, is it necessary to unplug the Martin Logans, (I am obviously turning off the Pass amp). My thought is yes, since there are amps in the subs - but I may be being overcautious and it's a big PITA.

I know talking cable is always contentious, and it's not my intention to convert anyone that doesn't believe cables make a difference - but I certainly do. In fact, I was astonished at how much I could hear the difference cables make due to the resolution of the ESLs. In regards to cables I tried, until I got all components set up, I was just using bulk Snap AV OFC cable. Since, I've tried a number of entry-mid level audiophile brands (Nordost and Moon Audio), as well as pro cable: Mogami, Belkin.

To my ears, the Nordost and even Belkin are too bright, so I've eliminated them. In terms of Mogami, I've tried both 3082 and 3103. The Moon Audio Cable (Black Dragon), is quite good - as it adds a touch of warmth and the vocals sound eerily "in the room" good. That said, I keep coming back to the Mogami 3103, as it's more neutral. If I predominantly listened to vocal oriented music, the black dragon would be the clear winner - but I listen to a lot of jazz, and the extra relative little bit of sparkle on the Mogami 3103 is appreciated. The 3103 is high quality pro cable, but inexpensive, and I got it custom built at Performance Audio.

So it's down to the Black Dragon and the Mogami 3103. Both are pure copper; the Black Dragon is OCC and the Mogami is OFC. I am going to spend another week or so listening to both before I make a decision. My gut is telling me that it's going to end up being the Mogami and here's why: The Pass Labs and ML13, backed by my Chord Dave/M Scaler is so good - it really benefits from the cable that sounds most like nothing. The 3103 is dead neutral and absolutely nothing is added and nothing is missing. The Black Dragon is sweeter, and as a result the treble is pushed back a little more. I have used the black dragon cable on headphones with great success and really like it's sound signature. That being said, as mentioned, I think with a setup this good already - the 3103 might be the winner. But, before I make that decision - I need significantly more time with the Black Dragon speaker cable as I have only had a short time to listen to it.

For those that have tired both pro and audiophile brands - what ended up being your preference? I'm curious if others have found that with ESLs, pro cable is the best solution.

Incidentally, I am using Belden 1800f for my XLR interconnects. I have to do a fairly long XLR run from DAC to Integrated Amp - and in addition to audiophile cables being prohibitively expensive at that length, I wanted the lowest capacitance pro cable I could find - to ensure I don't experience high end role off, and it was either that or Mogami. I bought the Belden as I got it from Blue Jeans Cables, but may consider replacing it with Mogami 2594 if I end up settling on the 3103 speaker cables, to have a fully Mogami signal path.

I'm running the Mogami 3104 and on my 11As and they sound phenomenal. Won't use another cable.

 

[twich54]

Andrew, welcome to the fold and allow me to give my two cents on 'wire' .........

Whether it be power, IC or speaker it need not be expensive or complicated. Spending $$$ for wire ranks up there with some of the dumbest things this hobby projects IMO.

Now that I got that out of the way and on the subject of speaker cable as it relates to Electrostatic speakers one important reference point is the issue of capacitance, the lower the better. Your speakers are in essence a capacitor and adding speaker wire between amp and speaker of high capacitance only increases the amps need for even greater stability to drive the speaker.

One of the best cost / performance options for stats IMO.............

http://signalcable.com/ultraspeaker.html

 

[andrew.hendler]

Andrew, welcome to the fold and allow me to give my two cents on 'wire' .........

Whether it be power, IC or speaker it need not be expensive or complicated. Spending $$$ for wire ranks up there with some of the dumbest things this hobby projects IMO.

Now that I got that out of the way and on the subject of speaker cable as it relates to Electrostatic speakers one important reference point is the issue of capacitance, the lower the better. Your speakers are in essence a capacitor and adding speaker wire between amp and speaker of high capacitance only increases the amps need for even greater stability to drive the speaker.

One of the best cost / performance options for stats IMO.............

http://signalcable.com/ultraspeaker.html

Will check it out, thank you! Look, I completely understand there is a science to these things - and it should sound best (or at least work best) given the parameters you’ve outlined. That said, In my experience some wire sounds good and some doesn’t (whether it's ESLs or Dynamic speakers) - and it’s hard to pin it down on a particular scientific attribute. Sometimes it is. Sure, I've used what you described as a starting point: that's why I tried Nordost ribbon cable in SPC, which is similar to the cables hard wired onto my Stax electrostatic headphones, and thinner Mogami 3082 because of lower capacitance at the expense of higher resistance. But what's supposed to work best doesn't always sound the best to me. I agree that it’s not about cable cost, but certainly sometimes expensive cable are good just like sometimes inexpensive ones are. My biggest takeaway is that these speakers are so sensitive, it becomes easy to spot differences and the challenge becomes which cable sounds best with the majority of my listening.

 

[andrew.hendler]

I'm still going back and forth with all the cables I have on hand, and I'm focusing on the frequency balance primarily. I'm glad I decided to finally plug in the Canare 4s11, because my initial impression is I might like it best. That said, I've just listened to it for 30 min - so early impressions are always subject to change!

From brightest to darkest here is how I'm hearing the cables I have. Many are pro cables and may have readily available specs which explain some of this, some of the Audiophile brands do not.

Brightest
Nordost White Leif
Belden 5T00UP
Mogami 3103
Canare 4s11
Moon Audio Black Dragon
Mogami 3082
Darkest

While the effective frequency range of each cable is more complex than this, I felt like this - high level - is best I can explain what I'm hearing.

I really, really like the Black Dragon - and if this system was for music only - I might go with it. The sound of that cable is perfect for jazz. That said, watching a movie, because of the touch of warmth - dialogue becomes slightly set back which is a consideration because I don't have a center channel.

Also while the cable sounds utterly fantastic on certain music, the same things it's doing to frequency response may not be best for another genre. The Black Dragon sounds best on jazz and vocals. It's close, but lacks a slight bite on some rock. Certainly not all. It is definitely a pleasing and easy cable to live with long term, because it's sooooo smooth. But at the expense of some sparkle. Though it's got more than the 3082.

I plugged in the Canare, and it seems to sit smack dab in the middle of the Black Dragon and the Mogami 3103. In fact, for these 6 cables it seems to be smack dab in the middle. I need to listen longer, but so far it has just the right amount of sparkle without being overbearing. What I mean by this is where the upper mids sit. You want them to pop, but too much quickly leads to fatigue. Too little leads to boredom. To me, the cable that works best gets this right. Onn Elysium, by Al Di Meola for instance - with the 3103 his lead guitar can sound overbearing. It's smooth as butter on the Black Dragon. Maybe too smooth. With the Canare, it both pops and has enough smoothness to be pleasing. Like real life: a distorted electric guitar will jump out at you - but to listen on a hifi system you want to strike the balance so it's exciting but not fatiguing.

The Canare 4s11 I got at B&H and is made by sescom. If I go with this cable, in the end, I may get a custom version from Performance Audio, or another cable builder, just for aesthetics and because I can pick the exact connectors I want. Nonetheless this is a nice build with locking banana connectors.

Really, really interesting process in listening to all these cables. As mentioned, I hear differences in cables - and I know audiophile cables are, in many cases, intentionally different. What I'm really surprised by is that the pro cables sound as different as they do with these speakers. It probably has something to do with electrical characteristics of these cables - but I can't pick up a pattern yet. Maybe someone smarter me can.

In the interin, I'm gonna leave the Canare in for a couple days and see how that goes.

 

[andrew.hendler]

@twich54

I keep hearing about signal cables again and again - and you're right, they certainly don't cost an arm and a leg.

What is it about them that you particularly like? Also - after reading up around the forums, I believe you started with Mogami 3082 at one point. What made you switch to signal cables, and any differences you noticed with the sound on MLs specifically?

The differences I'm hearing are so dramatic that it's almost certainly got a lot to do with Electrostats unique characteristics. One of my problems is trying to find the right balance in the upper mids - too much = fatigue, too little = constriction. Previously I had addressed this by changing the rake, with my bulk cable, but it's almost like every cable has a significant difference in it's presentation there.

Thanks again for your advice and for posting in this thread!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Andrew. To state the obvious, your final selection is entirely subjective. I would not be swayed by any other individual perspective posted on this site or any other.

I agree with Dave that Ultra (Signal?) Cable offers high sonic value for the price as does Anti Cable, DH Labs and others.

Based on my 40 years plus being involved with this hobby, I would recommend you audition a cable (within your price point) for at least 2 to 4 weeks. This allows you to identify the sonic subtleties of each cable and when you insert a different wire, those minor (or major) sonic flavor of the previous cable should be audible.

Second, I also suggest you listen to a wide range of personal preference music genres (of varying sound quality) with each cable. A wire that sound good on rock may suck with jazz or classical. Also, avoid listening solely to your references. Like music genres, audible recording quality differences will allow you to make a more informed decision.

You also may want to check out the Cable Company. They offer a massive variety of wire for auditioning. Bare in mind that they do not offer a money back option but any previous deposits are credited to the price of your final purchase.

And finally a comment to my friend Dave. I admit to being really dumb because all my wire (except speaker cable) are mid level Shunyata Research. Not inexpensive but IMHO, not obscenely priced. It all depends on your budget, personal biases and system transparency.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Oops. Double posted.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Hi Andrew. To state the obvious, your final selection is entirely subjective. I would not be swayed by any other individual perspective posted on this site or any other.

I agree with Dave that Ultra (Signal?) Cable offers high sonic value for the price as does Anti Cable, DH Labs and others.

Based on my 40 years plus being involved with this hobby, I would recommend you audition a cable (within your price point) for at least 2 to 4 weeks. This allows you to identify the sonic subtleties of each cable and when you insert a different wire, those minor (or major) sonic flavor of the previous cable should be audible.

Second, I also suggest you listen to a wide range of personal preference music genres (of varying sound quality) with each cable. A wire that sound good on rock may suck with jazz or classical. Also, avoid listening solely to your references. Like music genres, audible recording quality differences will allow you to make a more informed decision.

You also may want to check out the Cable Company. They offer a massive variety of wire for auditioning. Bare in mind that they do not offer a money back option but any
previous deposits are credited to the price of your final purchase.

And finally a comment to my friend Dave. I admit to being really dumb because all my wire (except speaker cable) are mid level Synergistic Research. It all depends on your budget, personal biases and system transparency. Not inexpensive but not obscenely priced.

Thank you. So many cable to try, so many variables.

Completely agree that some higher end cables sound great on some music, and are not very good on others. There is no free lunch. If it pulls out some frequencies somewhere, something is gonna suffer.

I have a lot of good pro cable and a couple audiophile brands to try. Worked with the cable company before, and signal cables is in my backyard.

The pro offerings while slightly different, for the most part are closest to neutral. What I’m trying to do now is start with those and tune them via rake, as that has so much impact on key frequencies. Seems best to start with as full a range signal as possible - and then try and tweak around that. It’s what I did before with my cheapo snap AV cable and I got the speakers to sound great.

Anyhow - sincerely appreciate everyone’s advice. I’m gonna mess around a little more and will report on my results.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Incidentally - and not sure anyone knows the answer know the answer to this: can I unplug speaker cables from a powered down amp, with my speakers still plugged in? I have big power cords that are a pain to plug in and take out, but my assumption is I have to unplug them because of the subwoofer amps in the speakers

 

[Gordon Gray]

Here is my guess. If you turn off your amp and preamp, there should be no signal going to your speakers. Same goes with sub power and inputs.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Here is my guess. If you turn off your amp and preamp, there should be no signal going to your speakers. Same goes with sub power and inputs.

That's what I've figured. At the very least, I gotta think it's a bad idea to pull out cables with the amp/preamp off, if the stators are on, because that means the amp is on - and though unlikely, If I accidentally short the wires I could blow the sub on the MLs. I "think" it should be ok if the stators are not on, because that means the internal sub amp isn't on. Even if a short was enough to turn on the amp, it would likely be so quick that it wouldn't come out the sub by the time to speakers are turned on.

Has anyone else had any experience trying this? I remember when I was troubleshooting my speaker at some point - Martin Logan told me to pull out the banana plugs from the speaker, while the music was playing, so everything was on and playing. If that's the case, hopefully pulling cables with the amp off, but the speakers plugged in should be fine - especially if the stators are off.

Anyone try this and can confirm?

 

[msimanyi]

Are you saying you can’t pull the plug at the back of your speaker?

That sure seems like it should be easy, as these speakers are usually a couple feet off the wall.

Assuming you can unplug them, the risk of removing the speaker cables with the external amp off is nil. If the amp is on, *it’s* at risk if you touch the speaker leads, though that would hopefully just blow a fuse in the amp rather than cause real damage.

If you can’t unplug them for some reason, I’d at least wait until the woofer amps shut off. The manual might tell you that info, but I think it’s around ten minutes.

 

[rpokuls]

I've had pretty good experience buying my speaker cables from Home Depot hardware. Home Depot sells a roll of 100 feet of Southwire speaker cable for $30.98.
It's AWG # 14 which is a bit on the thin side for my tastes. I'd go for AWG #12 if possible, but can't seem to find it on the Home Depot's website.

Anyway, Good Luck!!