So, are we all going to sell our Logans ??

[twich54]

Based on Roger Sanders new found wisdom(curved ESL's don't work anymore), who is going to jump ship and buy a pair of his "10A's" ??

Not to mention the fact that 'his' bass unit is the perfectly integrated with the panel, so he says.

Seriously though, did any of you that attended CES get to hear his set-up ?

I know this is somewhat of a follow-up to "Sleepy's" thread but I just got done watching Rogers video from the show.

 

[Rich]

After listening to (and buying) his monobloc amplifiers and preamp, I would love to take a listen to his new speaker. I don't think I am ready to give up my Summits just yet, but I don't underestimate Roger's abilities in speaker design. His Innersound speakers received rave reviews and I imagine the new 10A is just as good if not better. Can't wait to hear how they compare to the Summits, especially along the lines of woofer/panel integration.

 

[mikesinger]

i have many times newer ISNT always better... dont get me wrong, sometimes it is but not worth the huge jump in price

 

[jjcarr]

Having owned a pair of his old Eros speakers, I'm not impressed with any of his speaker-speak. He's just trying to sell his speakers. The flat panel made the sweet spot so narrow that it became a problem, I'm talking SUPER narrow. His speakers are also GROSSLY overpriced. When I bought my Eros speakers replacement panels were only $800 a pair, then I called back a couple of months later and for no reason he'd decided to bump the price to $2k. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he only makes his panels flat because it's easier to make them that way.

I don't mind paying for good quality, but I don't like paying to pad someone else's bank account. I sold the Eros's and got ReQuests, and didn't miss the Eros's at all....however, it's subjective, I'm sure some people love them, I just have an issue with his pricing.

 

[asindc]

You first...

 

[eknuds01]

No way! Love my logans and I wouldn't give them up!!!!

 

[Rich]

I don't mind paying for good quality, but I don't like paying to pad someone else's bank account.

I can't speak for the Innersound speakers because I don't know much about the way that company operated. But I think the prices of Roger's new line of speakers reflect that they are not mass-produced in some factory, but are each handmade by Roger Sanders. He designed them and he alone hand-builds them. And if you aren't 100% satisfied with them once you get them, he will refund 100% of your money including round-trip shipping! To me, that kind of artistic craftsmanship combined with that kind of outstanding customer service is worth paying a few bucks extra.

Just as an example, when I called ML the other day to ask about an order, I got some young person answering the phone who couldn't give me much information about what was going on with my order or exactly when I could expect it to arrive. When I called Sanders Sound Systems the other day, Roger Sanders himself answered the phone. Again, that kind of customer service is worth a few bucks extra, in my opinion.

I don't know how good his new speakers are since I have never heard them. But the specs look pretty good. Compare Sanders 10A (24 Hz. to 27 KHz +- 2db; 98 db efficient) to the the ML Summit (24 Hz. to 23 KHz. +-3db; 92 db efficient). Also, his speakers come with a 600 watt external amplifier and adjustable external crossover for the 10 inch transmission line woofer. This provides ultimate flexibility in integrating the bass response of the woofers with the panels in a particular room. Certainly much more flexibility than ML gives us on their top-of-the-line Summit! And the price is only 2K more than the Summit, which I don't think is really out of line for a product that is handmade by the designer vs. one that is mass-produced in a factory.

Again, I am not saying they are better, because I haven't heard them. I am just saying that if they are at the quality level I would expect given my experience with Roger's electronics, then I don't believe they are over-priced. They will not be for everyone, but I believe they will provide great value for the money for those who do decide to purchase them.

As for the flat panel vs. curved panel debate, I think that is going to be a personal preference kind of thing. Obviously flat panels work well because most every ELS on the market is a flat panel. But even with ML's curved panels, I have to say my sweet spot is extremely narrow. So I am not sure what positives the curved panel actually provides. Anyone have an opinion on that?

 

[jjcarr]

I can't speak for the Innersound speakers because I don't know much about the way that company operated. But I think the prices of Roger's new line of speakers reflect that they are not mass-produced in some factory, but are each handmade by Roger Sanders.

I guess my take is that I don't care how it's made, but rather focus on the end quality. Much as I'd like to think otherwise, a hand-made Lotus Esprit isn't as well made as a BMW. However, I'm willing to throw money at Turner bikes for a handmade Flux, rather than an assembly-line made Specialized so it's more a subjective evaluation than a real objective one.

I think in the end the arbitrary increase in the cost of the speakers left a bad taste in my mouth. The new speaker is a minor tweek of the old Eros, but is somehow more than 2x more expensive. The same argument could be made that there isn't sufficient reason for a Summit to be that much more expensive than a Vantage, so again, it's subjective.

The one thing I can say objectively though, is that the Eros I had did not demonstrate the polish and reliability of the Martin Logans. The woofer box developed a crack at the seam, the construction of the stat panel had more of a DIY feel, and the stat panel I had arc'd like an SOB, it become a glorified bug-zapper... While my ReQuests were flawless. But, this is only experience with one of his speakers, hardly conclusive.

In the end you're right, we're paying for a lack of economy of scale. While it is handmade, I just don't think you're getting that much better of a speaker than the Logans, in fact, in a lot of ways I think you're getting an inferior speaker (based on the Eros, I can't comment on the new ones).

But, it's understandable why someone would prefer a Lotus over a BMW...

 

[aliveatfive]

Dave -

FWIW - Several years ago I heard a pair of the newer Innersounds at the Stereophile show demonstrated by Sanders himself. Because of the nature of the panels, the placement of the speakers was totally asymetrical within the room in which they were demoed. They sounded ok - similar to the Ascents I had at the time. Oh yes, at about 2,5 times the price. BTW, I'm not getting rid of my Summits.

 

[TomDac]

Should Dave be banned for suggesting this???

 

[JasonR]

Should Dave be banned for suggesting this???

Seems to me this sort of thing should be encouraged so people like me can troll the classifieds for a deal on those horrible sounding Summits.

- Jason

 

[Mobs]

Seems to me this sort of thing should be encouraged so people like me can troll the classifieds for a deal on those horrible sounding Summits.

- Jason

Ditto! :devil:

Later

 

[Panel Man]

Based on Roger Sanders new found wisdom(curved ESL's don't work anymore), who is going to jump ship and buy a pair of his "10A's" ?? . . .

I just hope that no one here confuses Gayle Sanders of Martin Logan with Roger Sanders. As far as I know, curved ESL's are patented by Martin Logan. That's why no one else has them.

 

[twich54]

I just hope that no one here confuses Gayle Sanders of Martin Logan with Roger Sanders. As far as I know, curved ESL's are patented by Martin Logan. That's why no one else has them.

No confussion, it's just that the curved panel electrostic was first pioneered by Roger and then adopted by M/L.

Hey.......I was allowed to post this, guess Mr "D" didn't ban me afterall !!

 

[Panel Man]

Interesting

Interesting because ML got the patent for curved ESL's.

 

[Rich]

Hey.......I was allowed to post this, guess Mr "D" didn't ban me afterall !!

Yeah, but be careful. You are on thin ice, posting heretical threads like this one.

 

[Joey_V]

Should Dave be banned for suggesting this???

As much as I don't want to see Pops banned, I must say that I am with Big T on this one.

 

[JohnA]

I don't see anything new in that Sanders post.

The wider the high-frequency dispersion pattern --> the wider the sweet spot --> the more chances we've got of mucking the 3D imaging from side-reflections.
Nothing breathtakingly new eh

I like my 30degree dispersion of my MLs, because it gives me a happy compromise of usability and clarity. If they were totally directional then moving my head one foot right or left would kill the magic. Give me a break.
I don't want to be strapped like Alex in Clockwork Orange

 

[Horchem1972]

Out of date Logans

Isn't this what every speaker manufacturer has said.They believe that their way is the right way.I am very happy with my 20-year old Monolith II's and that is what matters.I have been a fan of Martin Logan ever since my first set of CLS1's.They have a distinct sound that I prefer.There is nothing wrong with other speakers.I will buy what I prefer,no matter what Roger Sanders or any other speaker maker states.In the end this is what really matters.Not the he said she said game.:rocker::music:

 

[jjcarr]

I don't want to be strapped like Alex in Clockwork Orange

That's a pretty good analogy, that's exactly how I felt with the Eros. Great sounding, but if I turned my head 5 degrees it all went away....