Sanders Sound 10c's receive HP's Golden Ear Awards 2010

[Gordon Gray]

Tom,

The panel technology is obviously different with the Sanders obviously being the more robust.

One dramatic difference is the relative "listening" window between the two manufacturer's. ML, like Sound Labs, has a curved panel. The Sanders, like the previous Acoustat line, does not.

I'm sure Roger has very good reasons for his design and I really enjoyed what I heard at RMAF 07 and 09. However, be advised that the Sanders speaker, like all stats with this "flat" panel configuration, is a one person speaker. That is to say, they "beam" to the extreme and anyone slightly "off axis" will hear a severe drop off of imaging, frequency response, and other elements that compromise one's ability to connect with the music.

GG

 

[tonepub]

Actually, there are dramatic differences in the these technologies.
As regards to the panels, there are two key elements: the stator and the diaphragm coating.
Stator

• ML uses perforated steel that is then power coated
• Sanders uses glass encapsulation of the conductors that are then machined to form slots.

Diaphragm

• ML uses Indium tin oxide that is lightly applied by sputtering in a vacuum chamber
• Sanders uses ultra high purity graphite that is embedded into the diaphragm

The warranty has been discussed in another thread, but I will add this for you here. A lifetime warranty is possible because because the panels do not fail (i.e. do not need to be replaced).

Cheers,
Angela

But to play devil's advocate, how valid really is a "lifetime" warranty from such a small company? How old is Roger? How many employees do you have and what's the financial guarantee that you'll be around in ten years to replace these panels, should they fail? A certain amount of electronics fail, no matter what the formula. And let's face it, you're the sales girl, not the engineer. It's your job to tell us that your widget is better, which I still think is somewhat in poor taste on a MartinLogan owners site. I wouldn't dream of hanging out on a Ferrari club site and telling them that a Porsche is a better car.

It's obvious we have some people here nervous about the (approximately) 15 year lifespan of ML panels, and this is justifiable. But who's there to pick up the pieces when Roger gets really old and can't/won't/can't remember how to fix these speakers should they fail?

For our members in their late 50's and early 60's this probably isn't a concern but what about the 35 year old customer that is being sold on the lifetime warranty now?

This is something to consider when writing a five figure check to ANYONE.

 

[Angela]

Jeff,
I simply answered a legitimate question posed by Tom regarding differences. I offered facts and not opinions to help him understand some of the basic differences. I did not state one is better than the other. I have never stated that any products are better or worse that ML. I am a fan of ML's. The first electrostat I ever heard was the Prodigys.
Look, quite a few of the guys here are customers as they own Roger's amplifiers to drive their MLs. It has been a healthy and supportive relationship; one that is very appreciated. And yes, Roger also makes speakers that compete with MLs; so questions or news comes up from time to time that may involve them. I think that is understandable. This hobby and industry are getting small enough without us helping it along by fighting among ourselves.

Regards,
Angela

 

[Gordon]

It seems that Jeff has a certain axe to grind (maybe not) which doesn't phase me in the least. The questions he poses are one's that cross my mind and he is much more eloquent than I can or could be.

While I enjoy reading input/reviews of "regular" (consumers) people of different speakers (SoundLabs, Wilson, and a host of others), I have to agree with him in that it does seem unusual that Roger has such "corporate" exposure on a Martin Logan site.

Angela, does Roger have a site we can visit and have open discussions as we do here?

Gordon

 

[kwr]

I would love Soundlabs to get on here and talk speakers, any electrostatic manufacturer. As long as people are civil and do not use the forum to diss another competitors product.

No matter the approach there will be a disadvantage - I will not be buying a Sanders speaker because of the narrow sweet spot. I recognise why Roger wants to do this but it would not suit our large and interested household. Maybe further down the track.

Roger ticks a lot of boxes, active, digital control of crossover etc, the glow of dealing with the person who makes the product, good pricing and a clear commitment to the customer.

Sure it is an ML forum but I have owned Quads and would like one day to do the Soundlab thing - who knows, maybe Roger's amps.

For a lot of people ML is their introductuon to electrostatics - it is not the only answer in electrostatics.

Kevin

 

[kwr]

But to play devil's advocate, how valid really is a "lifetime" warranty from such a small company? .

To play devil's devil's advocate an awful lot of the highend is small manufacturers. You may have an idea Geoff - how many companies would have more than fifty employees in the so called highend. Probably any company that keels over a customer will find the warranty no longer supported.

Kevin

 

[Rich]

This is getting ridiculous. People razz Jeff all the time about whether he should be posting on this forum due to his own personal corporate interests . . . and now Jeff is basically doing the same thing with Angela.

Get over it, people! Yes, it is a MartinLogan fan site. But it is not sponsored by MartinLogan, nor is that all we discuss here. And anyone TomDac allows to be a member has a right to post. Period. End of Story.

Instead of questioning someone else's right to post, or the supposed "ethics" quandaries of them posting on this forum, how about just engaging them in conversation about electrostatic speakers? There's a thought. Geez!

 

[User211]

That is to say, they "beam" to the extreme and anyone slightly "off axis" will hear a severe drop off of imaging, frequency response, and other elements that compromise one's ability to connect with the music.

GG

Whilst in principle that sounds as though it ought to be true, the reality is the best performance from any hybrid ML I have ever heard is smack bang in the middle of them. You wouldn't really want to be anywhere else. Hence the need for flashlight setup etc.

The fact is with the curvelinear design, you are actually only directly hearing a very small percentage of the total panel area - the bit that reflects the flashlight, I believe.

I personally feel, that off-axis, subjectivey, flat panel designs are actually a bit better subjectively. The CLX is the best off-axis ML electro I have heard, and alot of it is - you guessed it - flat panel. I think Quads and Apogees are less fussy off-axis than ML hybrids too.

This is just what my ears have told me. And also a couple of decades sitting in front of ML hybrids trying to get my head in exactly the right position.

 

[Horchem1972]

Very good point Rich.You do seem to have an axe to grind Tonepub.Why is she not allowed to answer a question that was specifically asked to her?? Calling her only a sales girl was a classless comment.I guess since you are a sponser you think you can bully people and tell them not to post.I believe that anyone who backs up your absurd attitude is just as guilty as you.Remember Tonepub that this is Tom's site and not yours.

 

[Angela]

Gordon, You bring up a good point. Sanders does not have a forum, but that is a good idea that I need to look into. As Tom can probably tell you, it's more than just creating a site and turning it on and I don't know that we have the resources to manage it as successfully and robustly as it is here. I will look into it and see what it will take. Thanks for the idea.

I read a lot and participate some in the forums here because
(1) it is a well run site
(2) you guys get it. You understand what ES are all about and do so in a positive and engaging way.

It's the fix that goes with my coffee in the morning.

Angela

 

[DTB300]

For this site a MANUFACTURES FORUM could be made where Companies are invited to post whatever they want about their products. Being a Manufacturer/Company Forum gives them the latitude to post marketing, ads, specials, etc. without upsetting the masses here.

 

[TomDac]

Hi Angela,

Domain name = $25 per year
Web hosting = $300 per year
Forum software = $285 plus installation.

It's easy to do... Starting your own forum would probably make a lot of sense.

I tend to agree with Jeff most of the times... Not because he's a sponsor, either...

I don't know much about the Sanders ESLs... Never heard them. Hear great things about their amps, however. My spidey sense tingles whenever I hear "lifetime guarantee". In this case, who's to say the company will be around a decade from now when you may need repairs or replacement parts. That is always a risk you'll run when buying anything from a smaller esoteric company and you have to weigh that risk when making a decision to purchase the product.

 

[robertawillisjr]

This foolishness (my opinion) about Angela posting needs to stop. She simply answers questions that many of us want information about. At this time, many of us are looking for ML alternatives. Why? Perhaps it is because ML is now part of a mega corporate entity.

Guys, when ML started it was small and produced an unreliable product. Great sounding, with many problems. It was attention to both product and customers that made it sucessful. Sanders is a small company that is well respected and produces products that many people seem to think are exceptional. Stop hating!

There are always risks when you buy something from a small audio company. Many of us probably have a number of "door stoppers" somewhere in the house. Keep it in perspective.

I am very interested in seeing how you old timers react if/when many of the non esl ML owners start taking an active role in the forum.

 

[Hocky]

Angela - I will gladly start and run your forum in exchange for a long term loaner pair.

;-)

 

[tonepub]

Very good point Rich.You do seem to have an axe to grind Tonepub.Why is she not allowed to answer a question that was specifically asked to her?? Calling her only a sales girl was a classless comment.I guess since you are a sponser you think you can bully people and tell them not to post.I believe that anyone who backs up your absurd attitude is just as guilty as you.Remember Tonepub that this is Tom's site and not yours.

She is the marketing half of the company. Does that sound better? All of the sales whatevers from every company make the same kind of claims. I don't have any axe to grind with Sanders, however I do think it's a valid point as to just how long of a lifespan this product really has.

There are a number of companies in the high end audio world that have 1-4 employees, that's true. But it's also a point of contention when they make claims like this. It's your money, do what you want.

I've been in this industry a long time and have heard a lot of people cry "boo hoo" when they buy something like this expecting a "lifetime" warranty and things go pearshaped.

All too often, I keep hearing that the press is in the pocket of the mfrs. However, when someone comes along and asks a pertinent question, you all get stinky. If Roger Sanders had a larger company with a line of succession and was 40 years old, I wouldn't have a problem with the "lifetime warranty" comments.

What I fail to understand is why some of you get bent out of shape thinking ML might not have panels for a $3500 pair of speakers that you bought ten years ago, TEN YEARS FROM NOW, but you have no problem with someone telling you they are offering a lifetime warranty on a product when there is a strong probability that they might not be around 10 years from now to fix it.

It isn't Sanders, it's all of the small high end companies that make me pause.

Personally, I don't keep gear long enough to be concerned. Except for a few instances, 5-6 years and I move it. Now with reviewing, I need to keep my system current, so probably 3 years is going to be the limit going forward.

It's your money, do as you please. I truly hope you don't end up with a lump 8 years from now. It's not like this kind of thing hasn't happened in the past. I've got a pair of Spica TC-50's that I love but can't get fixed either. The good news is that they were only a 300 dollar purchase, so I don't care. But 10k is another story.

 

[jtwrace]

Sanders should hire Jim Power.

 

[Angela]

Angela - I will gladly start and run your forum in exchange for a long term loaner pair.

;-)

I know you're kidding, but that may not be such a undo-able offer.

 

[timm]

Sanders should hire Jim Power.

HAHA!! Good one...

I agree with jeff... Seems to be some marketing, perceptions, fuel to fire stuff which may all be unintended or had started from questions being asked etc... I think the irritant started because of a timing issue:
1) ML Panels would not be created to infinity and beyond.
2) Some users were discussing panel replacements - costs etc...
3)Post comes out about Sanders panels being impervious to nuclear attack with lifetime warranty. (So, see Tom - it IS about atom bombs!!)
4)People's reaction to that as if lifetime meant that their speakers could be handed down to their great grandchildren and hence ML speakers now 'suck' for at least some users who have no problems whatsoever with their current product. Seems like in most cases it is a 'sky is falling' type of thinking.

I think Jeff is questioning that line of thinking - as do I.

Others (GG for one) have also questioned the fine line between marketing and informative posts. And I guess it just depends on what kind of site this is... Is it like AudioAsylum - a more generic audio site -- or is it ML centric ... or is it a little bit of both?

From a marketing perspective Angela - I would hit the Planar forum on AudioAsylum with the Golden Ear award - if you have not all ready...

I think it is cool that Sanders is 'offering' a lifetime warranty - willing to step up to the plate and say 'Hey I'll back my speakers to the end' - with the understanding that it might not be my lifetime!! And again -for me it isn't about the warranty - it is about the SOUNDDDDD...... I would never trade my ML's for something else if there was some guarantee that the other product was going to last longer... Who cares? Now, if it sounds better, that is what it is really all about...


As I have said elsewhere - If I purchase speakers and get 15 years out of it - that is fine - I think.. Time for a new journey with something else / something new... He who dies with the best speakers wins!! Hey, I just made that up - I think? Or maybe that was Gayle Sanders idea??

I had my Carver m500t from '82 till now... If it choked now (it runs my HT mains) no biggie -- if it would have choked 10 years ago -- no biggie... why should I look at something as fragile as a speaker and expect MORE out of it??
Trust me - when I purchased the Carver amp - it was a larger % of my income than my Odysseys purchase was....

Oh, and by the way, my Odysseys sounded incredible last night -- Got the Like Minds SACD...

 

[Hocky]

I know you're kidding, but that may not be such a undo-able offer.

lol, well you let me know when you're ready to talk about it. ;-)

 

[jtwrace]

As for the lifetime warranty. Meh.

Martin Logan could certainly go under...big audio guys have and will continue I'm sure. Some are due to bad business practice and some are just poor products. It happens. Take my Final Sound speakers. $10k and they are out of business. I had a 3 yr warranty. If it was lifetime I'd be in the same boat as I'm in now. Fortunetely another company has hired the CEO of Final and is going to offer support for the Final line. In the end, it will probably be better. Then the CEO will be able to help develop the new owners products. In my opinion, they went under due to managment not the product. It can happen anywhere. It's part of purchasing anything IMO.

I do not know anything about Sanders business other then he sells x, y and z and he's been around for awhile. MUCH longer then Angela. sorry.

Who's to say that he doesn't have some young guy or gal that is working along side him to take over the business so it continues for a lifetime?