Well, you know what I mean! Sony went after Toshiba and killed HD DVD which arguably had better specs than Blu Ray. By the same token, they killed off DVD Audio too. I wanted to continue to buy DVD Audios rather than the CD. I am not a fan of streaming or downloading. And you know deep down, all things being equal, the physical media always sounds better. I know they are supposed to be zeros and ones. Even the engineers are baffled.
SACD Player Recomendations
- Thread starter twich54
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Well, sample rate is not everything. To me, compression rate and jitter are more important which translate in palpable sound quality.
amey01
Well-known member
Compression is a non issue when it is lossless. In fact, DVD-Audio is compressed too - ever heard of MLP?
As for jitter (AND integrity of the data stream) - a network is far more capable of giving a reliable data stream than a piece of spinning plastic (that can't be re-read).
How does a DVD-Audio disc benefit you in the way of compression or jitter????????
Gawd, why? You wan to keep buying cheap, dust-collecting, plastic discs, that have to be read in real-time (and that have to be stored) over a network that can deliver 100% reliability, instantly?
Doesn't make sense to even my most open mind.
I vehemently disagree. Granted - I find it very hard to tell the difference, if there is any difference at all. In theory - error correction and DAC buffering should more than cater for any differences. I certainly don't hear enough difference, or a reliable difference for me to say there is a difference.
This is really easy to verify if you doubt me (or if you doubt the engineers who know far more about this stuff than you and I). I did it about 15 years ago when I was first experimenting with streaming. I took a 5 or 10 second data stream from the SPDIF output of a CD player, and the SPDIF output of a Squeezebox running over wi-fi; playing the same CD which had been ripped to FLAC, with server-side transcoding. Checksum was identical.
But that said - I am more than happy with the integrity that a network can deliver data. Networks deliver far more important things than music.......with 100% reliability.
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The idea the physical media sounds better is pretty funny.
File(silent, instant access) -> error free with error correction to DAC -> pre-amp -> amp
vs.
Potentially flawed physical media that can attract dirt, dust, or be scratched
-> transport mechanism ( potential noise)
-> optical reading mechanism converts pits to bits ( potentially flawed )
-> transfers data ( as well as it can, no error correction ) to DAC -> pre-amp -> amp
Physical media gives you a way to misplace your music, create additional labor retrieving music and putting it back in some semblance of order, and a transport mechanism which is a mechanical point of failure and something that will wear out eventually.
Odds are unless a disk is damaged you won't hear any difference between these, but you "might" hear the disk transport spinning up.
The only way they could sound different would be that they go through a different quality DAC.
If your CD player sounds better, it's time to upgrade your DAC. I use my OPPO 150D as my BD,CD,SACD and DAC from external sources so my music all has the same data path from the DAC forward and sounds the same.
File(silent, instant access) -> error free with error correction to DAC -> pre-amp -> amp
vs.
Potentially flawed physical media that can attract dirt, dust, or be scratched
-> transport mechanism ( potential noise)
-> optical reading mechanism converts pits to bits ( potentially flawed )
-> transfers data ( as well as it can, no error correction ) to DAC -> pre-amp -> amp
Physical media gives you a way to misplace your music, create additional labor retrieving music and putting it back in some semblance of order, and a transport mechanism which is a mechanical point of failure and something that will wear out eventually.
Odds are unless a disk is damaged you won't hear any difference between these, but you "might" hear the disk transport spinning up.
The only way they could sound different would be that they go through a different quality DAC.
If your CD player sounds better, it's time to upgrade your DAC. I use my OPPO 150D as my BD,CD,SACD and DAC from external sources so my music all has the same data path from the DAC forward and sounds the same.
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I admire your passion and detailed comments to my post. But at the end of the day, the beauty of the sound is in the ear of the beholder - to each their own. Not everyone wants to invest in a costly server and or streamer. Not everybody is lazy to put their disks in the jewel box once they have finished playing. And let's not forget the artwork right in our hand with no need to resort to an app to show it to me. I know you get more with apps. I guess at the end, we are civilized and agree to disagree!!!!
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Adam,
Unfortunate that you can't understand another persons perspective, when you disagree, without preaching and making condescending, judgmental remarks. One reason why I rarely visit this site anymore. See the above for a civilized, respectful response.
FWIW, many folks on WBF, who own very good digital playback systems, have stated they still prefer the sound from a CD disc versus its streaming counterpart. Have a good day mate.
Gordon
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SACD DSD64 approaches the resolution of 192/24 PCM and does not suffer from clock jitter as much as PCM. And there is a sonic difference that I and many others hear. It was developed originally as a way to best archive master tapes for the recording industry. PCM did not fit that bill.
Recordings can be harder to get but I have a Freind that recently discovered SACDs and found them to be overall better than his vinyl recordings, which he has a collection of around 3000 LPs.
In just 6 months he has accumulated over 200 SACDs.
amey01
Well-known member
You don't need an SACD to hear DSD though - I stream DSD256 (granted, there is nothing available - the only DSD256 file I have is a test/sample file, and I don't yet have the equipment to be satisfied I would hear any benefits anyway - purely a proof of concept at this stage for me).
But I've done it - and it's exciting what the future holds (Mytek Brooklyn on order).
But I would expect more software in the coming years.
amey01
Well-known member
As always......... Because if we all agreed there would be nothing to discuss
The only thing that put a red flag to me was when you said the format "was dead" - so if we can acknowledge high-res PCM is far from dead, and that compression exists on DVD-A physical discs too - then we can each enjoy music how we like it best.
I know what you mean though - the physical format was killed off. To be honest though - If Sony hadn't killed it off, it wouldn't have lasted many more years anyway. It wouldn't have taken long until it would have been killed by streaming, as per every other physical format. Just like CDs and SACDs and BDs have been killed off too.
Next discussion can be about whether FLAC or MLP is a better compression algorithm. :O
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amey01
Well-known member
That is not my intention Gordon........sorry if you perceive it that way.
I can understand how what I said may come across that way though - that's my fault.
I don't doubt them. Problem is, all things have to be equal - and it is very hard to keep all things equal.
I think that we can acknowledge though, that a network has the ability to deliver data with much more accuracy than trying to read a spinning disc in real time.
Please note^^: I'm not using this statement to deductively infer that one sounds better than the other.......
Thanks Gordon for coming to my defense!!! I really appreciate it. I do not want to add fuel to the fire. But I completely forgot to mention about the fact that we have the ability to get glorious multi-channel (mostly 5.1) music. I know for some purists, that is a sin. And how many steaming services do you know that offer 5.1 files or DACs that support 5.1? But I do not care, when I hear an album presented in 5.1, I get goosebumps. So again, let us celebrate our differences and enjoy the music the way we like. Cheers.
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As always, "Caveat Emptor"! Just because it says 24/96 does not necessarily make it so. I received notification of an album from Sound Liaison offered in formats from MP3 all the way up to DSD and DXD. However, the promo info indicates that the recording format was analog tape! Not much point in buying a format any higher than 24/48 (or maybe 24/96). Save your money...and some storage space.
Provenance is key!
amey01
Well-known member
Absolutely! I've got 24/192 files which sound worse than the 16/44.1 equivalents of the same recording. Different mastering.
As for analogue tape - that's probably one of the best source formats!
Exactly. If multiple potential sources of errors sending identical data to your CD players DAC sounds better than the identical data going to an external DAC than the external DAC or it's analog output section is the weak link.
So yes they can sound different but only because of a shortcoming in the DAC or between the DAC and the amplifier.
Jitter isn't even possible if you are using asynchronous USB transfer to your DAC. Being asynchronous the music is by definition transferred intact early and is buffered sitting in memory waiting for your DAC to have time to process it. It isn't picked up in real time and therefore jitter is absolutely and completely impossible.
amey01
Well-known member
To be fair, there can still be jitter in the DAC's clock.......no clock is completely stable.
Virtually every half-modern DAC buffers SPDIF too.
But I get your point - that is, there is no jitter induced by the source or the data line. As I keep saying - reading a disc in real time and sending that clocked data over an archaic SPDIF link with zero intelligence built-in is orders of magnitude technically inferior to a network/USB scenario.
[Notice I said "technically inferior" - that doesn't mean it sounds inferior. (but it would take a damn good argument for me to even consider otherwise). My opinion is that - for all intents and purposes - they are the same. Checksums can prove that pretty easily if you need the proof.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. FYI, I'm 70 years old, retired and quite content with my "simple" life. No stress, no tension, decent health and lots of music listening, reading and golf. I am very blessed to have "landed" so well.
As you may have gathered, I have zero interest in streaming and networking. Given that I am not proficient in computers (nor do I wish to be), I prefer the simplicity of a CD playback system. And I also don't own a cell phone because I don't need or want one. Wonderful tech if used properly but it is, IMHO, destroying the mental and social acuity of the younger generation. But that's another discussion.
One thing I forgot to mention. I use "post notes" to document all tracks and volume levels on every CD I own and then program each CD to include cuts that I like spanning a 15 to 20 minute time frame. Replicates listening to one side of a record which I used to do a long tome ago. Not being argumentative but can you do that with streaming?
Best,
Gordon
Thanks for your thoughtful response. FYI, I'm 70 years old, retired and quite content with my "simple" life. No stress, no tension, decent health and lots of music listening, reading and golf. I am very blessed to have "landed" so well.
As you may have gathered, I have zero interest in streaming and networking. Given that I am not proficient in computers (nor do I wish to be), I prefer the simplicity of a CD playback system. And I also don't own a cell phone because I don't need or want one. Wonderful tech if used properly but it is, IMHO, destroying the mental and social acuity of the younger generation. But that's another discussion.
One thing I forgot to mention. I use "post notes" to document all tracks and volume levels on every CD I own and then program each CD to include cuts that I like spanning a 15 to 20 minute time frame. Replicates listening to one side of a record which I used to do a long tome ago. Not being argumentative but can you do that with streaming?
Best,
Gordon
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amey01
Well-known member
Yes you can - absolutely! You don't even have to program them in each time you play. But you can do that as well - just by selecting the tracks you want (in the order you want) and choose "Add to end of queue".
You know what? I even understand your use of Post-Its......I like a physical copy of my music too, and use it regularly. I use a little utility called "Album Catalogue Creator" to print out a listing on a regular basis.......looks somewhat like this [excerpt]:
| **** Hyman | **** Hyman Plays Fats Waller | Jazz | |||
| **** Hyman | **** Hyman Trio | Jazz | |||
| **** Hyman | Thinking about Bix | Jazz | |||
| **** Hyman & John Sheridan | Forgotten Dreams: Archives of Novelty Piano | Jazz | |||
| Dido | Girl Who Got Away | Pop | |||
| Dido | Life for Rent | Pop |
It's more than 30 pages of A4 paper now, but I love sitting back and flicking through it.
And I very much envy your simple life - you're very lucky!
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I'd say, being somewhere in between these ages, that I love putting a vinyl on and listen to one side, then walk over to the turntable flipping it or put another record on. Then again in other situations prepare a que streaming contents, and recently also just let the radio do the trick. All depends on the moment and can change as the night is evolving.
Happy listening to whatever you listen to or the way yo do it
Happy listening to whatever you listen to or the way yo do it
How about streaming a 4k movie versus playing a UHD 4 k disc? Last night we watched the first Hobbit movie on the new 4k disc and were very happy with the picture and sound. The discs also come with a digital download code. Haven't tried that yet, I always just use the disc. Streaming movies on my Amazon 4k Firestick looks just as good as the player but the sound isn't as good.
The disk is always As in always better quality than streaming. Streaming will adopt to the actual internet speed and dynamically change the quality but never above the disk. Often the streaming available is lower not least the sound.
