Room Acoustics Questions: Please share theories and experiences

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Would the “Bill Gates” option have flat response or is a flat response a theoretical ideal?
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There’s flat frequency and then there’s the issue of spatial localization.

If your don’t care for spatial localization, a pair of Stax Headphones will give you perfect, flat FR.
While nice for headphone listening, it’s not what people associate with in-room ‘music’. So most listening spaces need some reverberant field cues for the brain to latch onto. Now, most rooms are waaay to reverberant and overlay their signature on the music to the point where listening to the performance is difficult.

A really good room will have some localization, but will have enough absorption and diffusion to not provide easily distinguishable acoustical distance detection from its surfaces. Basically, it should have some reflections, but not enough that our echo-location can map out the walls exactly. This is what makes a well treated room ‘disappear’ or sound ‘bigger’ than it really is. It fools the echo-location (which derives data from the delta between first arrival sounds and reflected sounds) into not ‘seeing’ the room for what it is.

Flat bass response is almost impossible to achieve in a small (3,500 cu ft) space. But one can get close, and when you do, it sounds cleaner (mostly due to lack of temporal ringing effects discussed above).
 
If there are treatments behind the speakers to help absorb the back waves, what percentage of the waves is absorbed? 25%, 75%? Why not put some really thick treatments behind the speakers to absorb as much as possible?
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Heh, trick question. It depends is the answer ;-)

Look at the coefficients of absorption for a material like OC 705, you’ll see that it varies across the frequency spectrum.
For materials whose coefficient at a given frequency is 1.0, then all the energy is absorbed at specified frequencies.

But to answer your question: you want to absorb a reasonable amount, and products like a MiniTrap HF do the job pretty well in my experience. I have the front wall lined with six of them.
Couple that with some Mondo’s in the corners and most people would be set.
 
Assuming the rear wave from the Martin Logan is trapped, why is treating the wall behind the listening chair more important than treating the wall in front of the speakers?
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Slight clarification: you mean the walls to the ‘sides’ and ahead of the front speakers, right ?

The wall behind the listener is going to play a bigger role in the perceived soundstage, as reflections off of it are going to be quite strong (line array depth of ‘near-field’ SPL profile) and will be detected as ‘reflections’ coming from behind.

Side wall reflections are minimized in ML setups, as for one, line source propagation profiles are fairly tight and linear to the front, with minimal lateral dispersion. Secondly, most users toe-in the speakers enough that even the curved panels are not sending any energy onto the side walls, so there is generally very little energy to ‘reflect’ off the usual ‘first reflection point’.

So depending on the distance between listener and the wall behind them, either diffusion (distance >5’) or absorption (<4’) is recommended.
 
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Ideally should the entire back wall be covered before treating the front wall?
How should the treatments be split - 2/3 back vs. 1/3 front, 100% back wall 50-50%, if one has limited number of treatments?
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My recommendation is to do the front wall first, this will have the biggest impact. Then focus on rear wall.

Note, this is for high-frequency items. For bass trapping, it’s generally recommended to put the big boys (such as stacked Mondos) in the rear corners first.

For ML’s, I recommend doing bass trapping and rear wave trapping simultaneously. So I'd say two Minitrap HF behind the panels and two Mondos in the rear corners is a good starting point.

I’d continue building up, dealing with both ends a bit at a time.

It would not be good to have one end heavily treated and the other left raw.
 
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How long does it take for the waves to die down (so one can't hear it or its effects) on their own?
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Depends on frequency. A 50hz bass resonance can take as long as 600ms to fully decay. This is general referred to as a nasty ‘boom’, resulting in ‘one-note’ bass.

A 5Khz ringing might only last 10ms, but man will that screw up the highs.
 
Are side wall reflections an important issue for Martin Logans if speakers are not toed in? Are side wall reflections more damaging in regards to bass or other bands also?
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Side wall reflections are actually more of an issue when the dipole rear wave is NOT treated, as what’s coming off the side walls is the 7 to 15ms delayed rear wave. That causes pretty bad destructive interference (comb-filtering) and time-smearing. If the rear wave has more than 20ft to travel, then it’s perceived as distinct from the direct sound and many people enjoy that.

Which is why you see many people recommending putting ML’s on the long side of room, so the side wall reflection of the rear wave have a long time response (>15ms).

As you note, there is little lateral dispersion from our ESL’s, so the front wave-launch is pretty much coming straight at our ears. Very little of the front launch will ever hit a lateral wall between speaker and listener, it’s what happens to it once it does reach a surface that needs to be looked into (such as the discussion of the rear wall above).
 
How close should the speakers be placed to sidewalls? Why not place the speakers right up against the wall, since there are supposedly few side reflections for planar speakers?
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Yep, you could do that as far as highs are concerned, but the boundary gain in the bass would not be a good thing.

So even if the HF dispersion is not a problem, we still want the speakers away from boundaries (or would need to compensate in the crossover or w/EQ).
 
What is the best way to deal with closets? Leave them open to suck in the bass or close them to let the bass be absorbed by the traps in the room?
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Pass on this one. Ethan ?
 
Is there another material other than mineral wool, 703 - 705 fiberglass, or acoustic cotton that may be more effective but not used because of cost?
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Compound construction, layering multiple products and using resonant membranes seem to be the commercial solution to widening the absorption bandwidth. See RPG bass traps for more discussion of that.

So, no, no single material that I’m aware of, regardless of cost, has excellent broadband absorption coefficients.

Remember, this is the audiophile community who’ll pay $300 a foot for wire ;)

If something exotic and expensive existed that did the job, it would be marketed to us :)
 
Some guys use 2” panels. Why bother with that, unless spouse/ physical constraints prevail. If they don’t why not have panels 12 or 18” thick?
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Generally speaking, yes, the wider the better (with respect to low frequencies), but that’s where compound construction comes in and allows for a product like the Mondo trap to be a chunky 6”, yet perform like 8 or more inches of 705.

Also how and where stuff is placed has more of an impact than just mere width.

I had no WAF constraints in my setup, and the thickest product in there are the Mondos (which are quite big).
 
What is the best way to deal with closets? Leave them open to suck in the bass or close them to let the bass be absorbed by the traps in the room?

Pass on this one. Ethan ?

Sorry, I was busy for a few days. I usually at least peek quickly once every day! :D

A closet packed with clothes or insulation can be a good bass trap if the door is left open.

Any other outstanding questions?

--Ethan
 
Any other outstanding questions?

Nope - but Hi-Fi News actually took some interest in room treatments over here this month. It was in the form of a letter from a reader. He'd written in to say how to make cheap ones using loft insulation, and garden centre seed trays, I believe.

England doesn't seem to really have gotten on the acoustic treatment bandwagon like you stateside guys have.
 
Nope - but Hi-Fi News actually took some interest in room treatments over here this month. It was in the form of a letter from a reader. He'd written in to say how to make cheap ones using loft insulation, and garden centre seed trays, I believe.

England doesn't seem to really have gotten on the acoustic treatment bandwagon like you stateside guys have.


Justin, I think your sample may be skewed if you only come to this site. People in the US have not bought in either. I exchanged emails with an editor of an audio magazine, who thinks his room does not need treatments. He told me his room sounds great, although he has not tried any panels in the room! The room mode calculations, however, tell a different story.

Just take a look at some of the expensive systems posted on audiogon. Very few of the pictures show any room treatments whatsoever. The ones that do, have insufficient number of panels. Folks spend so much money on equipment, but they are getting only a fraction of the capability to reproduce the music. Most Wilson owners just plop them in their living rooms, and don't ask questions. The strange thing is that if the spouse is not involved and one has freedom, this is the cheapest upgrade per $.

I think this site is quite pioneering, thanks to a few senior members on this site who really get it.
 
overload

Happy Holidays!

A few question for our acoustic experts or anyone who can share his experiences. If the answer is “depends” please provide example scenarios how things may work in different ways. Please feel free to answer any or all of these. Thanks!
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What’s the difference acoustics-wise/ sonically between mineral wool vs. 703 or 705 fiberglass vs acoustic cotton?

How does one deal with windows/ glass? Does bass escape through the windows? What happens to the higher frequencies? What material can be used to deal with the higher frequencies, while letting the bass get out?
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Is there something scientific to golden ratio room size, or is myth/ wishful thinking?

Why is a panel on the corner much more effective than hanging on the wall?
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Is a panel hanging on the wall more effective than one standing on the floor?
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How much space between the wall and the panel is optimal? If the panel is out more than optimal, is it less effective?
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When a panel is straddling a corner, does the empty space reduce the panel’s effectiveness?

If speakers are 12 feet into the room in a large room, does one "need" to absorb the back wave? What is the rule of thumb for moving the speaker into the room so the back wave will be less of a factor?
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What size is a large room? What size is a small room?
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Is there a room size where acoustic treatments are not necessary? Some people in a big room (27 x25 x10, for example) say they do not need room treatments. Could this be true?
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Can a well treated small room ever sound as good as a well treated big room?
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Are open doors or openings into other rooms an effective way to deal with bass issues? How big of an opening starts messing up the soundstage?
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Do blankets, curtains, or cloths help reduce high frequencies or is a myth?
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What does an equalizer do vs. acoustic panels? Do equalizers add value? What needs to be in place for them to make the biggest difference?
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What is the difference between the different products, say Rives PARC vs. Audissey?
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If one has Bill Gates money, how does one make the ultimate listening room?
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If one does not quite have Bill Gates money, but still has a good budget to create a room, what can be done to a room? Is it using acoustic panels on all surfaces instead of floors, ceilings and drywall, or is it more than that?
do you have some aspiring??
i'm on overload right now.....
L O L sorry, i couldn't resist the urge.
seriously, start experimenting with placement, etc.
 
do you have some aspiring??
i'm on overload right now.....
L O L sorry, i couldn't resist the urge.
seriously, start experimenting with placement, etc.

Dear ITZ PMS,

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CDAVIDM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> Have you ever heard a quote by Ben Franklin that “experience is a dear teacher”? Most people interpret it to mean that "experience is the best teacher". This is wrong. What <st1:city><st1>Franklin</st1></st1:city> meant was that experience is an “expensive teacher.” <st1:city><st1>Franklin</st1></st1:city> went on to say that “yet fools will learn in no other school.” I am trying to avoid this.
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Now granted, much of audio is experiential and determined by personal tastes. Many idiots in this hobby buy stuff blindly or on recommendations of friends. However, acoustics is based on science (although some personal preference comes into play here, as you can see in this post). Great outcomes rarely happen by luck – a blind hog can occasionally find an acorn. Novices can sometimes get lucky. But why chance it?
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Ethan spent many hours of his life studying acoustics. Jonathan is an expert also. Other folks also have experiences in various types of rooms. Why not learn from their experience and expertise?

Best regards,
David
 
a blind hog can occasionally find an acorn.
That is a new one on me...I have always heard Squirrel not Hog... :)

And I agree with you David, before I plunged into acoustical treatments I read and read and read and read everything out there from the experts and the end users. I have ended up with a much improved room from it - otherwise I do not think I would be where I am at.
 
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