Reviving older ESLs - burn-in required?

[Ingo]

Hello all, first post and first time ML owner here. Amazing to see there´s such an active community!

I just bought a pair of Aeon i, which had been in storage for at least 3 years, but stored properly (dry, cool, dark, covered). The previous owner treated them well – no sunlight, frequent vacuuming, covered them when not in use.
The panels are original, so they are nearly 20 years old.

Using them for the first time, I found them to sound somewhat muffled and bass heavy. Not much, but noticeable. Can it be they need to be broken in again? And if so, how do I do it?
Or are the panels just getting old and need to be replaced? They look very clean, though. Is there any point in washing them (as they are probably near EOL, could it be worth taking the risk)?

Thanks for any advice!

Ingo

 

[R.I.P]

Hello all, first post and first time ML owner here. Amazing to see there´s such an active community!

I just bought a pair of Aeon i, which had been in storage for at least 3 years, but stored properly (dry, cool, dark, covered). The previous owner treated them well – no sunlight, frequent vacuuming, covered them when not in use.
The panels are original, so they are nearly 20 years old.

Using them for the first time, I found them to sound somewhat muffled and bass heavy. Not much, but noticeable. Can it be they need to be broken in again? And if so, how do I do it?
Or are the panels just getting old and need to be replaced? They look very clean, though. Is there any point in washing them (as they are probably near EOL, could it be worth taking the risk)?

Thanks for any advice!

Ingo

If the panels look very clean they are very clean and transparent. Not requiring a wash.

Given the rest of the music system has no faults. If hum, distortion, or static accompanies music then the problem may lie in the loudspeaker electronics.

First, vacuum them well then after week or 2 weeks. Daily play music through them for a month. If the panels are okay keeping their age in mind, then by the end of the month the panel may sound alive, less muffled and dynamic. If this is the case do not wash and do not replace the panel. The sonic from the panel may keep on improving until they sound great.

If you want immediate results then change the panels. Takes around a couple months for new panels to be delivered. Therefore even this route takes time.

To improve sonics beyond Martin Logan factory design. Try active crossover. Complicated procedure for the uninitiated to implement but worth a try.

 

[Robert D]

What you describe is exactly how my nearly 20 year old Prodigys sounded when I got them years back. Have you hooked them up and run a DSP on them? What you probably have is worn out panels. My Marantz ended up having to set the speakers at +12 dB to get the correct volume out of them. Russ Knotts tested them too, and one came out 11 dB down and the other was more like 12.

When I ran them using Audyssey, they sounded good because it took off a bunch of bass so the highs weren't overpowered. I used them like that for a few years. Probably worked the hell out of my nice new Aragon amp!
I bought new panels and now they are set at -2 dB. Sound incredible.

 

[Ingo]

If the panels look very clean they are very clean and transparent. Not requiring a wash.

Given the rest of the music system has no faults. If hum, distortion, or static accompanies music then the problem may lie in the loudspeaker electronics.

First, vacuum them well then after week or 2 weeks. Daily play music through them for a month. If the panels are okay keeping their age in mind, then by the end of the month the panel may sound alive, less muffled and dynamic. If this is the case do not wash and do not replace the panel. The sonic from the panel may keep on improving until they sound great.

If you want immediate results then change the panels. Takes around a couple months for new panels to be delivered. Therefore even this route takes time.

To improve sonics beyond Martin Logan factory design. Try active crossover. Complicated procedure for the uninitiated to implement but worth a try.

Thank you. No hum, distortion or static. Just a bit lifeless sound...

So some beak-in can make them come alive, at least partly? At what level should they be played?

Will report back soon ;-)

 

[Ingo]

What you describe is exactly how my nearly 20 year old Prodigys sounded when I got them years back. Have you hooked them up and run a DSP on them? What you probably have is worn out panels. My Marantz ended up having to set the speakers at +12 dB to get the correct volume out of them. Russ Knotts tested them too, and one came out 11 dB down and the other was more like 12.

When I ran them using Audyssey, they sounded good because it took off a bunch of bass so the highs weren't overpowered. I used them like that for a few years. Probably worked the hell out of my nice new Aragon amp!
I bought new panels and now they are set at -2 dB. Sound incredible.

No, I have a no-DSP, non active setup, using a Musical Fidelity M6i for amplification (which provides ample and stable power).

By the way, I was pleasantly surprised of the quality of components in the crossover, including good solen film caps. No need to touch anything, right?

 

[R.I.P]

Thank you. No hum, distortion or static. Just a bit lifeless sound...

So some beak-in can make them come alive, at least partly? At what level should they be played?

Will report back soon ;-)

Play them between low and moderate volume.

If there is no improvement at all in sonics after one month or after three months have gone by then highly probable copper tape that runs the perimeter of the panel has become detached at some areas. This results in perhaps complete loss of high frequency sound.

If this is the case, you will need to repair or replace panels.

Roll of of high frequency sound may result if the amplifier struggles to provide amperes for 2-ohm impedance or does not match with the loudspeaker.

 

[Jazzman53]

Some may disagree with me but I think the only break-in that occurs with an ESL is a slight relaxation of the diaphragm's tension, which occurs and stabilizes within a few months of use, after fabrication.

It's improbable that both speakers would exhibit the symptoms described if the problem was in the electronics. It's also possible that the diaphragm-to-stator contacts are compromised (corroded) on both speakers, but considering their age, I think it's more likely that the diaphragm coatings are deteriorated.

If so; the only fix is to rebuild or replace the panels.

 

[18000rpm]

Using them for the first time, I found them to sound somewhat muffled and bass heavy. Not much, but noticeable. Can it be they need to be broken in again? And if so, how do I do it?

This is exactly what worn out panels sound like. Washing isn't going to help although you can give it a try. They need to be replaced.

Since you are in Germany you try contacting https://www.hifi-zenit.de/ who rebuilds the panels for less than new ones cost from MartinLogan. If you do please report back on the results!

From my past communications with them the price to rebuild Aeon i panels is not significantly less than ML, but for larger panels like Summit it is significantly cheaper (around half the price).

 

[Ingo]

This is exactly what worn out panels sound like. Washing isn't going to help although you can give it a try. They need to be replaced.

Since you are in Germany you try contacting https://www.hifi-zenit.de/ who rebuilds the panels for less than new ones cost from MartinLogan. If you do please report back on the results!

From my past communications with them the price to rebuild Aeon i panels is not significantly less than ML, but for larger panels like Summit it is significantly cheaper (around half the price).

Thank you, I had heard of them as well. They quote 1200 Euros to rebuild the panels - not exactly cheap... but they also claim to be "better than factory".

Also, they recommend to tweak the crossover and to replace the woofers with "high quality Scanspeak woofers". To my knowledge, the "i" already has improved woofers, and the crossovers look to be very high quality with only a single electrolytic capacitor, the rest being all Solen caps.

What's your take on that?

Also, the speakers seem to come to life at higher volumes, but then they seem even more bass-heavy. Is this still consistent with worn panels? They look immaculate...

Thanks,

Ingo

 

[Ingo]

I finally got a quote from the local distributor for a pair of new stators - exactly the same price. Would you go with new or refurbished - the latter claiming to use superior materials?

 

[Robert D]

I ordered my panels direct from ML and was very happy. I would personally do that.

 

[18000rpm]

I finally got a quote from the local distributor for a pair of new stators - exactly the same price. Would you go with new or refurbished - the latter claiming to use superior materials?

If they are the same price I'd go with ML.

 

[R.I.P]

Thank you, I had heard of them as well. They quote 1200 Euros to rebuild the panels - not exactly cheap... but they also claim to be "better than factory".

Also, they recommend to tweak the crossover and to replace the woofers with "high quality Scanspeak woofers". To my knowledge, the "i" already has improved woofers, and the crossovers look to be very high quality with only a single electrolytic capacitor, the rest being all Solen caps.

What's your take on that?

Also, the speakers seem to come to life at higher volumes, but then they seem even more bass-heavy. Is this still consistent with worn panels? They look immaculate...

Thanks,

Ingo

If the speakers truly come to life at higher volume then they should not sound bass heavy. Sound bass heavy one reason is the panel output is weak.

Despite being bass heavy and listening carefully at the volume just when the panel comes to life. If you think panel sonics are greater compared to previous. Then you need to adjust the placement. Placement close to the corner and wall in front of the listener can make the overall sound bass heavy.

In my opinion try adjust the following:

Placement. After I felt placement was optimal with my ML hybrids. The resulting sonic in my spartan room can be described as understated bass, open clear midrange and clear dynamic treble.

Listening position.

Run them in minimum time a month. Observe improvement in panel sonic.

Listening room is not overcrowded with sound absorbers such as sofa, cushion, curtains, main carpet and small rugs.

If after adjustments the sound is still bass heavy, recommend new panels. For peace of mind namely - 5-year warranty, longevity, fault free craftsmanship recommend electrostatic industry leader, Martin Logan.

 

[R.I.P]

If the former owner took good care of the panels when placed in storage. Perhaps when in operation not expose them to sunlight, smoke, limited dusty environment, cover them when not in use, kept in a cool environment and regularly vacuum.

If panels are not exposed to corrosive environment such as cigarette smoke. Then in my experience panel coating should remain intact after twenty years. My CLS age is nearly 35. Always in a smoke free environment though occasional smoke from scorched toast may have reached the panels.

During the first five years of my ownership not shielded from sunlight and not covered for approx. additional 10 years.

Dust build up is to blame for CLS 95% kaput panels. Washing helped to restore. Restoration of sonics short lived. Aeoni panels in immaculate condition makes me wonder whether they were washed prior to sale. After 20 years possible there may be some dust on the surface of the panel.

When recently panels were repaired. Made aware that copper tape 1 cm approx. wide that runs along the perimeter of the frame had become detached or loose at the top of the panel.

To cut a long story short, after CLS repair now I prefer sonics from the original CLS over Classic ELS 9.

 

[18000rpm]

When recently panels were repaired. Made aware that copper tape 1 cm approx. wide that runs along the perimeter of the frame had become detached or loose at the top of the panel.

Hi Rehan,

Where did you get your panels repaired?

 

[R.I.P]

Hi Rehan,

Where did you get your panels repaired?

Got panels repaired in Pakistan.

 

[Doug033]

I too began to notice a lifeless quality in my 30-year old CLS 1s. Still pleasant, but lacking the transient response I was hearing in other systems. I spoke with Russ Knots, who couldn’t guarantee that they could be repaired. I decided to get new panels from ML and couldn’t be happier. With two JL Fathom 110 subs and a JL electronic crossover, the “new” system sounds amazing.

 

[Jazzman53]

I too began to notice a lifeless quality in my 30-year old CLS 1s. Still pleasant, but lacking the transient response I was hearing in other systems. I spoke with Russ Knots, who couldn’t guarantee that they could be repaired. I decided to get new panels from ML and couldn’t be happier. With two JL Fathom 110 subs and a JL electronic crossover, the “new” system sounds amazing.

It probably wouldn't be smart for anyone to "guarantee" a panel repair without first dismantling and inspected it for burn-throughs on the stator coatings or other physical damage. Absent such damage, any panel can be refurbished.

 

[Ingo]

The weird thing is that the panels are not defective per se. It´s more like the frequency response seems off - upper treble is there, lower treble is lacking, as is lower midrange. And it sounds slightly lifeless, as Doug033 mentioned.

I just spoke to the guys who do the refurbishment in Germany. They say that usually 1) the coating starts to deteriorate, lowering the output overall and 2) those "divider strips" (don´t know how they are called correctly) lose their elastic properties, causing all kinds of resonances and cancellations between the segments of the panel.

That sounds quite plausible to me. I think I'll go with them. They replace everything but the metal parts, so it is not a "repair". They are also a licensed ML dealer and could source original parts, but prefer their own refurbishments. And they can do it in a couple of weeks, not months, which is a nice bonus.

I'll report back ;-)

 

[Ingo]

They also recommend some upgrades to the crossovers - which seen already high quality, to me at least.

Any advice on this?