Reviews - what can be trusted?

[akm3]

So, I've been in Martin Logan land since the Aerius model. My current system is a pair of mere ML Mosaic (a precursor to the Motion series) and Fresco i surrounds. They don't even come close to touching Aerius and Vantage speakers I have owned in the past, nor the bigger reQuest, Summit, several others I've been able to spend time listening to.

I'm in a new home with space for electrostats again, and looking at the current masterpiece line...I'm just torn based on the reviews I read. Every Martin Logan review for the past 30 years seems to be the same review.

"These new speakers bring fabulous imaging and sound stage of electrostats, but the real trick is integrating the woofer with the panel. These new Martin Logans are a dramatic improvement in the mating between the two". It's always the same. The woofer and panel mate better. Now better. Now better. The glowing review of last years models as have finally achieved nirvana of mating the woofer and panel are replaced that the NEW new version now has achieved it, and the old version therefore was lacking it.

For 30 years.

So, either every review we are being lied to and they don't actually mate well, and never have, and it just gets slightly better each time, or have we really made astronomical improvements each year? I don't know who to believe.

What my ears hear, is that the bass has gotten punchier and louder, but it never seems to have the same transparency that the electrostat panel has. That would be the mating right? To my ears it has gotten WORSE over time. The bass has gotten stronger, but it still never is as transparent. The old Aerius seemed to just not even try to have punchy bass going for overall more transparent sound stage and letting the bass lag a bit.

Each new model seems to mate no better but just get louder more subwoofer like bass. Am I insane? Does anyone else feel this way?

/edit: I should add that when listening to the new Motion line, they just sound shrill to me but without that open soundstage my Mosaic's provide because of no dipolar tweeter.
Trying to figure out what my next ML's should be but I'm not really happy where the sound of the line has gone. Which one gives that open, airy, transparency and imaging even if the bass is a little de-emphasized for better blending?

 

[roberto]

Hola akm3,

Well I do understand your points of view, and I agreed with you in a certain way. But claiming that the new models are not an improvement at the bass performance, here I am not with you.

Why not? Because with these models, you are able to adjust precisely the amount of bass energy that you want at your golden seat position. At the back of all self powered woofers cabinet, there is a bass intensity adjustment knob, and some models go beyond than that. I think it is a matter of liking. Some like bass energy shaking your room, others like to have the bass player at the virtual stage where the musician(s) are playing for you.

The bass resonances inherent in all speaker cabinets have been reduced to a wonderful level, making this to have an optimal, free of distortion, wide stage, and vivid sound. The stat panels are now free of resonances because of the new material used in the frames that holds the stat panels. Also, there are certain musical notes that resonates naturally more that others, usually G, E, D and A are musical notes that resonates more in most common size house rooms.

The reviews are just a guide, and each reviewer is impressed by how ML had change their design for better, not for worse. If you are accustomed to hear certain coloration, and this is the reason why we expect to have the same sound which we are always hearing. Let your ears to get accustomed to the newer sound. Use your ears and not what others are telling about. It is your liking, and your money. Your ears are the final judges. Trust in them! They are telling you if you are happy or not with your sound quality. The new stat panel is a wonder too. It offers more high frequency extension, and more dynamics. The seating golden spot with the new model is much wider.

The woofer integration problem ended with the Summits model and the following models, and there is a big transformation with the bass quality. ML engineers are designing, taking in mind all these unwanted resonances...offering just the pure sense of the recording. Bad recording are that, bad. There is nothing that we can do about this. If you apply a good signal, what you get is that, a good sound. You system chain must equals the quality of ML. Your quality sound with ML never ends. If you change any of your system component, they will be showed easily, for good or bad.

It is not my intention to sound rude, or imposed myself. I have a big language barrier, thanks for your understanding!.

Happy listening!

 

[twich54]

I'm in agreement with Roberto, but if you don't really like the current offerings you can go 'back in time' or obviously look to other options. Three years ago I left the world of planners / stats that I had been in for over thirty years. While I love my current speakers (Revel Studio2's) I finally listen to the 13a's (after my Revel purchase) and I could easily go back for the sonics they displayed to me.

 

[roberto]

akm3,
This song by Jennifer Warnes can exhibit easily unwanted resonances at her voice:
Also this one by Rebecca Pidgeon:

Concentrate at her voice, the bad resonances are evident.

Happy listening!

 

[Chops]

Well I'm one of the ones who do not like the sound of the newer ML offerings. Bass too heavy and thick, lower midrange too thin, and the treble tends to have a bit of a dry sound to it. And I've heard most of the new line in different systems, both in small high-end shops and at a big audio show, and they all had those same traits.

Unless you go with an all-panel model such as the CLS series, the CLX series, or the big boys, the hybrid Neolith, I feel that the last all around great sounding ML's were the Prodigy's and older models. This is exactly why I'm hanging on to my mint SL3's. They just sound right. People claim they lack energy in the crossover region at 250 Hz, but I don't get that at all. They have plenty of body and soul throughout the entire mid-bass and midrange along with a detailed and refined treble.

If I ever do upgrade, it will be somewhere from the Prodigy down, or one of the CLS models.

But as usual, it's just my opinion and YMMV.

 

[Robert D]

I'm getting my prodigy panels refurbished by Russ now and hope they sound good like new.

Anyone here have their prodigy panels replaced with new ones from ML recently. Wondering if they have the great sound of the originals, or if they take on a new sound. The cost on those is close to $3k now.

 

[patounet]

I have written some feedback around that you are talking about... I had Request, then Prodigy and now ESL15A. The presentataion is not the same with these new microperf stators, I noticed that at the moment ML launched Summits. More speed, more resolution, a tighted bass but the timbre in medium is not as smooth and silky it was before. ML staff and some customers said I have to wait more time to break in the new speakers, but I am sure now these new models provide a new sound. When you play lambda CD, the sound is harsch and projected in medium, the scenery is closer than before, and bad CD are no way to listen to ! The old models like Prodigy sounded more diffused, impressionnist, like a big electrostatic headphone. The new ones are closer to electrodynamic speakers, more precisse and less... magic ! That's it ! I understand some audiophiles prefer to replace their old panels, especialy if you give more attention to medium and trebles, forget the boomy bass...

 

[Chops]

I'm getting my prodigy panels refurbished by Russ now and hope they sound good like new.

Anyone here have their prodigy panels replaced with new ones from ML recently. Wondering if they have the great sound of the originals, or if they take on a new sound. The cost on those is close to $3k now.

Not that I need new panels, but I wrote Russ last night just to see what he has to say about referb'ing the SL3 panels. Mine still sound great. No output loss, no rolled off top end, nothing.

I think it's quite ridiculous that ML is charging such outrageous prices for stretching a sheet of mylar/plastic over some clear tape and old, used stators. I think they're trying to price themselves right out of that particular market just so they don't have to do it anymore. That way, return customers may just say the heck with it and spend a little extra to buy new, lesser quality ML's or go to a totally different brand altogether.

If they're charging $3k for Prodigy panels, I'm sure my SL3 panels are probably around $1500. And if for some reason they sound different, a.k.a. - worse than the original SL3 panels?... The heck with that.

Sorry for the rant and going slightly off topic.

 

[Chops]

I have written some feedback around that you are talking about... I had Request, then Prodigy and now ESL15A. The presentataion is not the same with these new microperf stators, I noticed that at the moment ML launched Summits. More speed, more resolution, a tighted bass but the timbre in medium is not as smooth and silky it was before. ML staff and some customers said I have to wait more time to break in the new speakers, but I am sure now these new models provide a new sound. When you play lambda CD, the sound is harsch and projected in medium, the scenery is closer than before, and bad CD are no way to listen to ! The old models like Prodigy sounded more diffused, impressionnist, like a big electrostatic headphone. The new ones are closer to electrodynamic speakers, more precisse and less... magic ! That's it ! I understand some audiophiles prefer to replace their old panels, especialy if you give more attention to medium and trebles, forget the boomy bass...

And that only confirms my views of the new line from ML even more.

 

[mentorron]

I'll keep my original Aerius hybrids, thank you. They reviewed well back then and sound just fine right now ;-) I've never heard Ladysmith Black Mambazo better (on Paul Simon's Graceland CD). You'd swear they were in the room with you ;-)
Same goes for Jennifer Warnes and Diana Krall. It was hearing Jennifer Warnes singing Leonard Cohen's Famous Blue Raincoat in a high end shop that sold me on the Aerius. Just wanted to sit there in the dark all afternoon. ;-) Posted the original review below since that magazine no longer exists, so hopefully no copyright left ;-) These M-Ls also had great reviews in Audio magazine, The Absolute Sound, Audio Ideas Guide and Stereophile.

 

[Robert D]

Not that I need new panels, but I wrote Russ last night just to see what he has to say about referb'ing the SL3 panels. Mine still sound great. No output loss, no rolled off top end, nothing.

I think it's quite ridiculous that ML is charging such outrageous prices for stretching a sheet of mylar/plastic over some clear tape and old, used stators. I think they're trying to price themselves right out of that particular market just so they don't have to do it anymore. That way, return customers may just say the heck with it and spend a little extra to buy new, lesser quality ML's or go to a totally different brand altogether.

If they're charging $3k for Prodigy panels, I'm sure my SL3 panels are probably around $1500. And if for some reason they sound different, a.k.a. - worse than the original SL3 panels?... The heck with that.

Sorry for the rant and going slightly off topic.

I agree 100%. Im not so sure I want to order new panels if I am not happy with the sound I get from my old ones when Russ is done. I may just abandon ML and move on to another type of speaker. The $3000 is ridiculous. I was under the impression that the whole panel is new. I dont think you send them your old panel and the reuse the stators. Im pretty sure they whole thing is new. Thats why im wondering how they will sound, because im assuming the stators will be the newer type with the smaller holes. Maybe it will sound even better? Even with all new stators, the $3000 seems a bit steep considering the rest of the speaker is 20 years old.

I would not want to consider buying something lesser in their line up instead of doing the new panels because I am sure I would be disappointed in the sound. I would be looking at getting the ESL X for around $4k if I did that, and I doubt the sound could even compare to the Prodigys.

Im starting to think also that regular cone speakers last longer than electrostats, so less upkeep cost there over the years.

 

[roberto]

I have written some feedback around that you are talking about... I had Request, then Prodigy and now ESL15A. The presentataion is not the same with these new microperf stators, I noticed that at the moment ML launched Summits. More speed, more resolution, a tighted bass but the timbre in medium is not as smooth and silky it was before. ML staff and some customers said I have to wait more time to break in the new speakers, but I am sure now these new models provide a new sound. When you play lambda CD, the sound is harsch and projected in medium, the scenery is closer than before, and bad CD are no way to listen to ! The old models like Prodigy sounded more diffused, impressionnist, like a big electrostatic headphone. The new ones are closer to electrodynamic speakers, more precisse and less... magic ! That's it ! I understand some audiophiles prefer to replace their old panels, especialy if you give more attention to medium and trebles, forget the boomy bass...

Hola,
I had a tremendous harsh with my CLXs with the famous MDAC made by AudioLab. It is a very good DAC, but my CLXs did not like it. It was jitter. Once I changed this DAC for an Exasound E-32, all the harsh is in the past. Now I have a crystal clear sound from down to zip, with truly sense of 3D. The new stat panel is less forgiven. It shows exactly the signal applied. I have a very mellow, sweet sound, and my system has never sound as good as it is right now. I do not want to change even a screw. I have the right timbre coming from a violin vs a viola. I have the body of both instrumensts.
In audio, everything is a matter of liking. What I do like, not necessary must be your liking. I think that ML has come forward in their new products, offering a staggering quality components inside. Here is a pic of the bottom of your 15A:
Front left below, is the crossover, Next to the transformer is the PSU, and to the right are the power amplifiers that drive the woofers. Far right, you can see the digital engine, where all the adjustments are made.
Happy listening!

 

[Lightloopy]

I am 3 months into my ESL 11A's which replaced SL3's. They have improved significantly and not as harsh and ARC made a significant improvement in bass which is outstanding. But I share some of Patounet's concerns regarding the lack of silky, 3D palpable vocals. The 11's are more clinical and not as organic(at this time) I plan to "borrow" back the SL3's in 3 or 4 months to compare. My friend said I can buy them back anytime but he is really enjoying them!

Dave- I'm curious -why did you leave the stat world?

 

[KrellYourLife]

I can only talk about CLSIIZ and CLX. The later is a real improvement while keeping all the characteristics of full range panels.
Bass is much better than the the one of CLSIIz (which by the way are still excellent speakers, in my opinion), deeper , tight without any feeling of swelling , mid and upper range are absolutely perfect.
Stage presentation is almost a perfect 3D rendering.

 

[twich54]

Robert you are correct you get a complete new panel. As for those of you that prefer your older models that's fine for transducers are very subjective but don't think for one minute they measure better or are more accurate that the current models, they aren't !

Even years back when the group toured the 'Land of Logan' in Lawrence , Ks we saw first hand the improvements made to the manufacturing of the stat panels over the previous generations.

 

[twich54]

I am 3 months into my ESL 11A's which replaced SL3's. They have improved significantly and not as harsh and ARC made a significant improvement in bass which is outstanding. But I share some of Patounet's concerns regarding the lack of silky, 3D palpable vocals. The 11's are more clinical and not as organic(at this time) I plan to "borrow" back the SL3's in 3 or 4 months to compare. My friend said I can buy them back anytime but he is really enjoying them!

Dave- I'm curious -why did you leave the stat world?

my leaving was not intentional, rather every 5 years or so I get the itch and listen around somewhat seriously to 'other' speakers. Well up untill three years ago I had not heard anything that would give me feeling / need to switch(pricing parameters in place) but when I auditioned the Revel Salon and Studio2's it was different. For the first time I hear mids and treble that matched and or bettered my then Spire's.

So here I am today, content and very happy with my Studio2's even though I did audition a pair of 13a's afterwards and was quite impressed !

 

[Lightloopy]

Dave- thanks for your insight and comments. I still remember the day I heard the SL3 in 1998 and was smitten and completely satisfied. It was a combination of age, the sale, and looking for the next stat which I thought would be an improvement which prompted me to purchase these. I had considered going in another direction too after hearing the KEF Ref 1. The Masterpiece series has been around awhile now so it will be interesting to see how folks feel about them in the long haul.

 

[akm3]

So if everyone agrees the sound of the panel has changed from the Aerius days through to the probably Micro-perf era. For those of us weirdos that like the old sound (even if the new is "Better") what kind of modifications or roll-off or whatever should we be looking to tweak the new models to sound more like the old models dreamy hazy airy clarity without shrill detail? JonFo or other audio wizards I hope you can help me quantify how the sounds have changed so I now how to wander back. (/edit: And, is the change more with the woofers and their technology/integration, or more with the panels themselves?)
/edit: I think the difference is just "Warmth" instead of "detail"

 

[Robert D]

Robert you are correct you get a complete new panel. As for those of you that prefer your older models that's fine for transducers are very subjective but don't think for one minute they measure better or are more accurate that the current models, they aren't !

Even years back when the group toured the 'Land of Logan' in Lawrence , Ks we saw first hand the improvements made to the manufacturing of the stat panels over the previous generations.

Are the new replacement panels, even for older models like Prodigy, microperf or the older stat panels like I have now in my original?

Wondering if they still make the old style stat panels or if they just put out the new microperfs.

 

[18000rpm]

I replaced the panels for my Prodigy a year or two ago from ML and the new panels look identical to the old. You get brand new panels, ML doesn't rebuild them.