Review of my balance force 210 w/ my system !!

[fattner]

Hi everyone ,first I would like to thank everyone on the web site that gave my feedback on the new addition to my system ( thanks Peter !!!) My system is all Macintosh stuff (501 mono amps ,c2300 tube preamp, Mac multi player 871 and marantz TT15 turntable ,and of corse my ML clsiiz .I really am a electrostatic speaker guy and I don't like any of the hybrids w/ woofers any them because I'm kinda a purist to the stat sound . But like any other audiophile I always chasing my tail for that in the room live sound ,lol so up one thinking it over I decide to get a subwoofer and not just any sub for my system ,I purchased a balance force 210 , just one can't afford 2 lol I'm married !! I finally hooked it up after some issues with cable one vs two , I'm using audio quest red river XLR s ,my friend Robert who also is a audiophile and a computer genius help me with the set up and the PBK .Ok was as easy as what Peter explains in the video at one of the audio shows . Ok my review ,please keep in mind I just a dumb firemen / medic so I will be straight forward with my review . My system was take to the next level of enjoyment,the detail and to mids and highs actually get better ( believe it or not ,it did) the sub tided in seamlessly ,as if I was wasn't in the room at all ,but when you turn it off the system lacked substance!! The room was fuller in sound and the system itself wasn't as direct inline listening ,it sounded great from every location !! Great investment in my audio room!! Take care everyone

 

[Tosh]

Sanders explains somwhere in here why the best compromise is an ESL combined with a dynamic woofer for the bass:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?480-Sanders-Sound-Systems-electrostatic/page9&

 

[RUR]

Sanders explains somwhere in here why the best compromise is an ESL combined with a dynamic woofer for the bass:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?480-Sanders-Sound-Systems-electrostatic/page9&

Specifically, a transmission line enclosure: http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/56-transmission-line-white-paper

 

[slowGEEZR]

Hi everyone ,first I would like to thank everyone on the web site that gave my feedback on the new addition to my system ( thanks Peter !!!) My system is all Macintosh stuff (501 mono amps ,c2300 tube preamp, Mac multi player 871 and marantz TT15 turntable ,and of corse my ML clsiiz .I really am a electrostatic speaker guy and I don't like any of the hybrids w/ woofers any them because I'm kinda a purist to the stat sound . But like any other audiophile I always chasing my tail for that in the room live sound ,lol so up one thinking it over I decide to get a subwoofer and not just any sub for my system ,I purchased a balance force 210 , just one can't afford 2 lol I'm married !! I finally hooked it up after some issues with cable one vs two , I'm using audio quest red river XLR s ,my friend Robert who also is a audiophile and a computer genius help me with the set up and the PBK .Ok was as easy as what Peter explains in the video at one of the audio shows . Ok my review ,please keep in mind I just a dumb firemen / medic so I will be straight forward with my review . My system was take to the next level of enjoyment,the detail and to mids and highs actually get better ( believe it or not ,it did) the sub tided in seamlessly ,as if I was wasn't in the room at all ,but when you turn it off the system lacked substance!! The room was fuller in sound and the system itself wasn't as direct inline listening ,it sounded great from every location !! Great investment in my audio room!! Take care everyone

Congrats! I love it when a plan comes together!

 

[sleepysurf]

Roger Sanders white paper really makes sense. I'm curious why ML didn't opt to use a transmission line cabinet for their hybrid bass design? Is it because they'd need a somewhat larger woofer cabinet for optimal implementation?

I was fortunate to hear a pair of Vapor Audio Joule's yesterday at our local audiophile club meeting. Those speakers pair a transmission line bass cabinet with a separate cabinet housing a midrange cone and Raal ribbon tweeter. I was really impressed with the speed and musicality of that design! It was one of the most "electrostatic-like" dynamic speakers I've ever heard!

I currently have a single ML BalancedForce 210 sub paired with my Summits, but still not getting the palpable "tight bass" that I want. Granted, much of my challenge is due to a large family room with cathedral ceilings and adjacent kitchen, and terrible bass null right at the sweet spot. In fact, I was planning on getting a 2nd ML BF 210 sub, but am now wondering if that will really help. One of our local audiophile club members (A.J. of Soundfield Audio) is a very knowledgeable speaker designer, and he surmised that adding a 2nd BF 210 sub, while adding more bass, and possibly helping with the null, won't necessarily provide "tighter" bass because the sealed cabinet design of the ML Summit woofers (and BF subs) will always result in some bass "overhang" which can muddy the lower frequencies.

Perhaps the next generation of the Summits (and Reserve Line subs) should be a transmission line design!

 

[Tosh]

Roger Sanders white paper really makes sense. I'm curious why ML didn't opt to use a transmission line cabinet for their hybrid bass design? Is it because they'd need a somewhat larger woofer cabinet for optimal implementation?

Vantage is TL. Perhaps they didn't use it again because they didn't want to be accused of stealing from Sanders (again).

 

[sleepysurf]

Vantage is TL. Perhaps they didn't use it again because they didn't want to be accused of stealing from Sanders (again).

Hah! I never knew the Vantage had a different woofer cabinet design, as evident in this cutaway view...

Even if Roger Sanders has a patent on hybrid electrostatic speakers with a transmission line bass cabinet (and if so, good for him <g>), I wonder how much longer before that patent runs out?

 

[Tosh]

That's not what I meant by stealing....

Anyway, ML makes more money by listening to most of their customers, and the customer wants smaller boxes, and ML wants lighter shipping, so you get ported boxes mostly.

 

[sleepysurf]

Ahh, forgot about the weight ~ shipping cost relationship! Perhaps the ever increasing capability of DSP plus room EQ will ultimately prove superior. From what I've read, the Montis really nails stat/bass integration.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Ahh, forgot about the weight ~ shipping cost relationship! Perhaps the ever increasing capability of DSP plus room EQ will ultimately prove superior. From what I've read, the Montis really nails stat/bass integration.

The Ethos seems very well integrated to my ears. It doesn't go quite as low, but it has authority and sounds tight and seamless to me.

Of course the Ethos is not ported and has a down firing passive radiator.

 

[jtucker]

MarK, I agree about the Ethos. I was pleasantly surprised by the bass performance in my room. I have not actually measured it, but I am pretty sure there is useable output below 30 Hz. When i auditioned the Theos, first thing that came to mind was "sure could use some more bass". I don't think it is the last word as far a seamless integration is concerned, but I doubt they could do much better without going to a bigger panel and lower crossover (I think they sell that as Montis). I may eventually get a sub, but I'm not in any hurry as it is 2 ch system only

 

[Northy]

Roger Sanders white paper really makes sense. I'm curious why ML didn't opt to use a transmission line cabinet for their hybrid bass design? Is it because they'd need a somewhat larger woofer cabinet for optimal implementation?

I was fortunate to hear a pair of Vapor Audio Joule's yesterday at our local audiophile club meeting. Those speakers pair a transmission line bass cabinet with a separate cabinet housing a midrange cone and Raal ribbon tweeter. I was really impressed with the speed and musicality of that design! It was one of the most "electrostatic-like" dynamic speakers I've ever heard!

I currently have a single ML BalancedForce 210 sub paired with my Summits, but still not getting the palpable "tight bass" that I want. Granted, much of my challenge is due to a large family room with cathedral ceilings and adjacent kitchen, and terrible bass null right at the sweet spot. In fact, I was planning on getting a 2nd ML BF 210 sub, but am now wondering if that will really help. One of our local audiophile club members (A.J. of Soundfield Audio) is a very knowledgeable speaker designer, and he surmised that adding a 2nd BF 210 sub, while adding more bass, and possibly helping with the null, won't necessarily provide "tighter" bass because the sealed cabinet design of the ML Summit woofers (and BF subs) will always result in some bass "overhang" which can muddy the lower frequencies.

Perhaps the next generation of the Summits (and Reserve Line subs) should be a transmission line design!

I do not agree with your assertion. The very reason ML uses a sealed cabinet is to remove any standing waves and overhangs. I have enjoyed my 210 for the last two months. And let me assure you that the bass is punchy tight, lighting fast and accurate. I have the PBK and will be uploading that soon.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

MarK, I agree about the Ethos. I was pleasantly surprised by the bass performance in my room. I have not actually measured it, but I am pretty sure there is useable output below 30 Hz. When i auditioned the Theos, first thing that came to mind was "sure could use some more bass". I don't think it is the last word as far a seamless integration is concerned, but I doubt they could do much better without going to a bigger panel and lower crossover (I think they sell that as Montis). I may eventually get a sub, but I'm not in any hurry as it is 2 ch system only

FWIW, this is what I measured in my room with my Ethos. My room appears to be seriously bass friendly in the sweet spot.

 

[C.A.P]

First down load the proper crossover slope from ML as they make a custom one for each speaker.. Then do the subwoofer crawl.. Sub in your chair area and crawl the room with a 60 hz tone at 75db. You can use the mic and software to look for the flattest graph to...

 

[GW1800]

Just a comment on my experience with 2-212's. I can't say enough about the PBK kit and how effective it is to control bass. I have replaced equipment, adjusted room layout many times and find it quite convienent to adjust the bass. My most recent move of some furniture and recal was the best to date. In my room there really is not any other places for the two subs so I needed help to make it happen. Originally had Summit X's and two descent i's and with a lot of work ended up with good bass but not nearly as solid, deep and chest pounding as I do now.