Renaissance ESL-15A full range or with Balanced Force 210 subs?

[ttocs]

Personally I'd definitely crossover the mains but play around with your crossover points and see what works best in your room. Bass is a bit different for everyone.

I tried this during the first year of ownership but the subs I had at the time were not a good match for my 13A. So I used the speaker level connections and got very good results.

But this week I began again to try setting the 13A as Small and using a crossover in the processor. In doing so, I've moved the subs to more optimum placement for normal subwoofery and am in the process of getting the group to its happy place. Frankly, it seemed easier to use the speaker level connections and align each 2-stack of subs to its 13A host, and then add the subwoofers at the rear of the room to help smooth things in the 60-70Hz range where a null exists. But, I'll give it a good go and see what happens.

I've been able to get a good result measurement wise where the crossover is concerned, but it sounds different, and I'm not liking it yet. The primary concern is strictly 2 channel music.

 

[shellnut48]

I can't imagine the amount of cables and cords you're dealing with! When I get behind my console, which has much less, I'm always overwhelmed. How many outlets are you using, or are they customized to handle all the traffic?

I have 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits in addition to 15 amp circuits. I use the 20 amp outlets for the power hungry amps each plugged into a PS Audio P20 power regenerator. Power hasn’t been an issue, but heat has been even with exhaust fans and all sides of the racks open without the doors or sides. Another rack would probably help, but I don’t really have the space. I’m going to add a portable room air conditioner which should make the room comfortable.
Ordering all of the cables, interconnects and power cords was a project within a bigger project.

 

[ejspain]

Soooooooo is anyone using the Audessey MultEQ app? If so, PLEASE HELP me figure out who's on first. I have a Marantz receiver; which also has ARC (oops Audessey).
1. Am I using MultEQ to measure the 11A/1100X's? Therefore bypassing ARC in the subs?
2. Do I use MultEQ to measure the 11A/1100X, upload to my receiver, then run ARC from the receiver to re-measure the entire system?

I purchased the Audessey MultEQ app after reading good things about its ability to out perform your receivers measurements. I have a little over 100hrs on the 11A's so I'm nearly ready to start dialing in.

PLEASE HELP!

 

[Robert D]

Soooooooo is anyone using the Audessey MultEQ app? If so, PLEASE HELP me figure out who's on first. I have a Marantz receiver; which also has ARC.
1. Am I using MultEQ to measure the 11A/1100X's? Therefore bypassing ARC in the subs?
2. Do I use MultEQ to measure the 11A/1100X, upload to my receiver, then run ARC from the receiver to re-measure the entire system?

I purchased the Audessey MultEQ app after reading good things about its ability to out perform your receivers measurements. I have a little over 100hrs on the 11A's so I'm nearly ready to start dialing in.

PLEASE HELP!

As far as I know, Marantz uses Audyssey and not ARC. That's how mine is, and i just looked up their new 11 channel receiver and it's that way.

With my system, I ran arc on my BF 210 and then ran Audyssey on my Marantz. I'm not familiar with Audyssey on the phone app.

 

[ejspain]

As far as I know, Marantz uses Audyssey and not ARC. That's how mine is, and i just looked up their new 11 channel receiver and it's that way.

With my system, I ran arc on my BF 210 and then ran Audyssey on my Marantz. I'm not familiar with Audyssey on the phone app.

oops yep you're correct....Audessey in the receiver. You may want to check out the Audessey MultEQ app...I loaded it onto my iPad (versus phone). It's like Audessey on steroids (compared to what's in our gear). Allows for a lot more fine tuning than what's in the receiver. I just don't want to do double duty if it isn't necessary.

 

[ttocs]

Soooooooo is anyone using the Audessey MultEQ app? If so, PLEASE HELP me figure out who's on first. I have a Marantz receiver; which also has ARC (oops Audessey).
1. Am I using MultEQ to measure the 11A/1100X's? Therefore bypassing ARC in the subs?
2. Do I use MultEQ to measure the 11A/1100X, upload to my receiver, then run ARC from the receiver to re-measure the entire system?

I purchased the Audessey MultEQ app after reading good things about its ability to out perform your receivers measurements. I have a little over 100hrs on the 11A's so I'm nearly ready to start dialing in.

PLEASE HELP!

I posted about this last night in a different thread, but with using Dirac after using ARC on a subwoofer. The same holds true with 11A ARC.

Below is a REW plot showing one subwoofer with no correction in Blue, then with the correction ARC provided in Red, and then what Dirac did in addition to ARC with the dashed Black trace.

I'm beginning to play with the adjustments ARC provides, and I like them very much! Very easy to get a good result for other correction apps to work with.

 

[ejspain]

I posted about this last night in a different thread, but with using Dirac after using ARC on a subwoofer. The same holds true with 11A ARC.

Below is a REW plot showing one subwoofer with no correction in Blue, then with the correction ARC provided in Red, and then what Dirac did in addition to ARC with the dashed Black trace.
View attachment 23730

I'm beginning to play with the adjustments ARC provides, and I like them very much! Very easy to get a good result for other correction apps to work with.

WOW!!! Really nice flat response between 20-50Hz...a small suck out at 60Hz but still relatively flat. Bass should be sounding pretty sweet. Good work. I'm terrible at this . Wish someone could just come to the house and do it for me

 

[Robert D]

oops yep you're correct....Audessey in the receiver. You may want to check out the Audessey MultEQ app...I loaded it onto my iPad (versus phone). It's like Audessey on steroids (compared to what's in our gear). Allows for a lot more fine tuning than what's in the receiver. I just don't want to do double duty if it isn't necessary.

Cool. I wasnt aware. If I were you, I'd use the receiver's and then your phone and compare how it sounds. Use whatever sounds best. I'd be concerned that the microphone used on the receiver is much better than that on the phone or IPad. Can you use the same microphone from the receiver on the Ipad?

 

[ttocs]

WOW!!! Really nice flat response between 20-50Hz...a small suck out at 60Hz but still relatively flat. Bass should be sounding pretty sweet. Good work. I'm terrible at this . Wish someone could just come to the house and do it for me

Ok, this is a good time to point out something.

Look at the blue trace. Notice that I did very little to the lowest freqs below 25Hz, left the rest of the response at the level between 25-45Hz (no boost), and forced the higher freqs to be squashed down. The unfortunate part of this is that the total output is lower, but the upside is getting a flatter response with fewer nulls/dips. Forcing a "boost" to raise up the lower frequency output level would not correct the nulls, but instead would expose them as what they are - and maybe be less wide etc, but there would be more lumps left in the curve.

So this is just one subwoofer. Over the next days and weeks I'm working on all of my subs, so this is just the beginning to see how ARC really works, something I've never done before with ARC, which is to use the adjustments available - and they are a lot more powerful than I'd ever thought they could be!

 

[ttocs]

FWIW
I'd be willing to do a Zoom Conference about ARC if there is some interest in that. I participated in a Emotiva buddy's REW Conference using his Zoom account last week, and it went very well. So I could do the same with MLO members and we could discuss how to use ARC effectively on our ML products.

Last night I was able to keep the ARC app active on my MacBook, make some changes, then use my Mac mini via the processor and use REW to measure the response immediately after loading a new ARC file on the subwoofer. This proved to be an awesome way to get'r done!

 

[ejspain]

Cool. I wasnt aware. If I were you, I'd use the receiver's and then your phone and compare how it sounds. Use whatever sounds best. I'd be concerned that the microphone used on the receiver is much better than that on the phone or IPad. Can you use the same microphone from the receiver on the Ipad?

If you don’t have the PBK from ML, you can use the mic that came with the receive. Connect it to your iPad or PC Laptop. What's cool is, once the measurements are taken, you can view graphs (like REW) and manually adjust as needed. You can also save multiple measurements (i.e. 2 channel, multichannel, zone 2, etc.) for later adjustments or implementation. Definitely a tool worthy of considering (ARC Genesis)

 

[ejspain]

Ok, this is a good time to point out something.

Look at the blue trace. Notice that I did very little to the lowest freqs below 25Hz, left the rest of the response at the level between 25-45Hz (no boost), and forced the higher freqs to be squashed down. The unfortunate part of this is that the total output is lower, but the upside is getting a flatter response with fewer nulls/dips. Forcing a "boost" to raise up the lower frequency output level would not correct the nulls, but instead would expose them as what they are - and maybe be less wide etc, but there would be more lumps left in the curve.

So this is just one subwoofer. Over the next days and weeks I'm working on all of my subs, so this is just the beginning to see how ARC really works, something I've never done before with ARC, which is to use the adjustments available - and they are a lot more powerful than I'd ever thought they could be!

If I'm understanding your madness correctly (all in fun of course)...I'd suggest measuring all subs together versus one at a time. I'm no professional but I would think single sub measurements in a multiple sub setup would cause all kinds of phase issues?? Anyone chime in please!

 

[ttocs]

If I'm understanding your madness correctly (all in fun of course)...I'd suggest measuring all subs together versus one at a time. I'm no professional but I would think single sub measurements in a multiple sub setup would cause all kinds of phase issues?? Anyone chime in please!

This was just an experiment, so yes, they'll all come into play at some point.

But,
The built-in ARC is an individual process for each sub and speaker. I was only attempting to show what happens with just one sub and its ARC calibration, and I chose one of the subs in this particular location because it's the most problematic location of the bunch. Once each sub has been corrected with ARC, and then all of them aligned together, Dirac will finally correct all six subs as one single virtual subwoofer for HT usage. For 2 channel stuff, I'll still be using pairs of subs for each Expression via speaker level connections, which Dirac will see as just a Front Left or Front Right speaker.

 

[ejspain]

FWIW
I'd be willing to do a Zoom Conference about ARC if there is some interest in that. I participated in a Emotiva buddy's REW Conference using his Zoom account last week, and it went very well. So I could do the same with MLO members and we could discuss how to use ARC effectively on our ML products.

Last night I was able to keep the ARC app active on my MacBook, make some changes, then use my Mac mini via the processor and use REW to measure the response immediately after loading a new ARC file on the subwoofer. This proved to be an awesome way to get'r done!

Count me in....even if it's just me

 

[ejspain]

This was just an experiment, so yes, they'll all come into play at some point.

But,
The built-in ARC is an individual process for each sub and speaker. I was only attempting to show what happens with just one sub and its ARC calibration, and I chose one of the subs in this particular location because it's the most problematic location of the bunch. Once each sub has been corrected with ARC, and then all of them aligned together, Dirac will finally correct all six subs as one single virtual subwoofer for HT usage. For 2 channel stuff, I'll still be using pairs of subs for each Expression via speaker level connections, which Dirac will see as just a Front Left or Front Right speaker.

Gotcha

 

[Len44]

Zoom sounds like a great idea, as I have much to learn in this area. Well, I guess in other areas as well...

 

[Russr]

Sorry for coming into this thread kinda late, but here's my $0.02 (and you know what they say about the advice you get being worth what you paid for it, right?!).

Strikes me that you would run the speaker-specific (on-board) ARC processes for each speaker and sub. That way, room interactions for EACH device are "sorted".

What that does NOT allow for is interaction between the built-in and external subs. So, at this point you run the Pre/Pro/Receiver ARC/Audessey process, and where there IS interaction between the low-frequency devices, it should get sorted out...

Russ