Receiver power enough? ML Vantage/Vista/Source

[ronning]

Hello-
Although i've searched for this answer in the forums, I am new here so if I missed a similar post, my apologies.

Anyway, I am *very* excited about finally buying a pair of ML speakers (something i've been hoping to do for a long time!) and i want to do it right, but *have* to stay in budget.

Summary:

Can my Onkyo receiver handle the Vantage? Can I bridge amplification to the front channels?

Details:

I currently have an Onkyo TX-SR705 (a higher-end Onkyo) receiver, and a collection of Infinity Delta 60 tower speakers. The receiver is newer, and I love it. The Infinity's are old, and need to go.

I went to my local dealer and auditioned the Purity, Source, and Vantage. I went in assuming the Purity was going to be the best bang for buck, especially considering my current equipment.

However, I was not impressed by the Purity - mid-bass was a bit boomy and muddy. I'll have to go back to see if i can tweak the settings/placement to make it sound better, but as it was i didn't like it.

The Source was better - cleaner - but was obviously much quieter (needed more power from the receiver) to play. The rep was using a mid-range Pioneer Elite to drive everything.

Next up were the Vantage - *amazing!* This is the Martin Logan sound I was looking for. Unfortunately, they cost $5000+. And they don't carry the cheaper Vista in-store (but can order).

If I can manage to find a pair of Vantages used or at discount, then i'd do it in a heartbeat. But i'm concerned that my receiver won't be able to handle 4 (or even lower) ohm load ?? I assume that powering the Vantage will be easier, since my receiver will only need to power the electrostat, and not the woofer.

One final piece: My receiver does have the ability to bi-amp the front speakers by using channels 6 & 7 (which I don't use), effectively giving 200+ watts to each front channel. This works for my Infinity Deltas which have dual binding posts, but would this provide any benefit to the Vantage (since the woofer is self-powered) ? Can I bridge that power into just the electrostat panels?

What about bi-amping the Vistas - could I get similar sound without paying as much?

I'd already be breaking the bank to afford the Vantage or Vista, so I'd really rather not buy outboard amp, at least not yet.

Thanks for helping a ML n00b.

 

[TomDac]

Welcome to the fray...

At 75 watts per channel, my first reaction is to say NO... but in reality, your receiver will probably do OK, especially if you bridge the channels you're not using together.

Watts aren't everything to look at when thinking about this... The amp has to have the ability to drive the low impedance load of the stat panel.

So your best bet is to keep the receiver and use it, but start looking at getting an outboard amp to power your Logans. You can use the PRE-OUTS to run to an external amp to power the mains..

You will never know what you're missing until you do.. That's what I've been doing forever. Good Luck!

 

[FISH_MAN]

my Yamaha HTR-5890 drove my vantages great. at least that's what I would have said intill I upgraded to the rotel 1095 and lex prepro and their are levels yet above this many levels.I think for now you will be fine but you will soon be looking for more power and control.remember that that amp in the vantages makes a big difference in my opinion I doubt you will hook them up and be disapointed

 

[Nikos]

if you are in a budget don't give up with Purity so soon.
try again to listen them and ask the dealer to connect them in the pre out of the receiver.
then play with the bass knob behind the woofers (-3 0 +3db).
all the people here agree that vista/vantage are better, but the internal 200w amp of purity is a very good one, especially if you don't have plans for a new one.
I have Purity and I have listen Vista but in not a very good setup( bryston cd and amp). Purity where better but that was not a fair comparison...

 

[tsmooth]

The Purity would be fine because you could use the pre-outs of your receiver, but you said you didn't like them.

I ran the ML Source off of a Denon 2807 until I moved up to amplification. It was fine and I never had any problems (eventhough the results with the Rotel 1080 and now the Sunfire was a night/day difference).

The Vista is what I currently have and they are biamped because the woofer box is not powered. I would not set them up any other way after hearing the difference. Due to the powered woofer in the Vantage, you should NOT biamp this speaker (refer to the manual on the ML website).

I would consider amplification into your $$$ decision.

 

[twich54]

If it were me I would try to be paitient and score a nice pair of used Vantage's ($2500-3000 is realistic) and depending on where you are budget wise either use your receiver for the time being (it will suffice) or if $$$ permits you should be able to score a nice Sunfire or Rotel piece (speaking amp here) for around a grand, at which point you can relegate your Onkyo to pre-amp duties.

This example gets you in the show for less than 4k !!

 

[ronning]

it's actually 100 watts per channel, 200 combined. How do I "bridge" the channels? Right now I run 2 sets of cables to each of my front speakers, which have 2 sets of binding posts. Would I do the same with the Vantage? Would this feed all 200 watts to the speaker?

Welcome to the fray...

At 75 watts per channel, my first reaction is to say NO... but in reality, your receiver will probably do OK, especially if you bridge the channels you're not using together.

Watts aren't everything to look at when thinking about this... The amp has to have the ability to drive the low impedance load of the stat panel.

So your best bet is to keep the receiver and use it, but start looking at getting an outboard amp to power your Logans. You can use the PRE-OUTS to run to an external amp to power the mains..

You will never know what you're missing until you do.. That's what I've been doing forever. Good Luck!

 

[David Matz]

I used to drive my Ascents with an old Yamaha, which are a much tougher load than the Vantage.

Go for it, but just don't blast it.

 

[twich54]

Quit worrying about 'bridging channels' on your receiver to achive 200 watts or whatever, for that is all but meaningless (not completely...but close !) with respect to panels on our Logans. You can bridge your receiver all you want but in the end it is a strong and stable supply of current that are speakers crave.

I stand by my first reply to you....Good Luck ! Oh yeah and BTW...Welcome !!

 

[TomDac]

it's actually 100 watts per channel, 200 combined. How do I "bridge" the channels? Right now I run 2 sets of cables to each of my front speakers, which have 2 sets of binding posts. Would I do the same with the Vantage? Would this feed all 200 watts to the speaker?

My bad.. 100 watts is correct.. I was looking at specs for a different model.

Not sure how you would bridge those.. somewhere in the setup, I would imagine.

Tom.

 

[Gordon]

Hi Ronning and welcome!

Dave gives some good advice. I also would disregard the biamp/biwire "feature" of your AVR. It is my belief it is all a marketing ploy by most of the manufacturers to say they have this capability. If an AVR is rated at say 75 watts, that is all it is going to give, irregardless of how you have it programmed or wired. Bridging of a true, stand alone amplifier can have an effect but you said your not ready for an amp(s) yet.

Gordon

 

[OldMonolith]

Sorry to drift a tad off topic...but regarding bi-wiring... It's so often misunderstood and bashed from limited exposure. (Not that thats exactly what you're saying Gordon!)

Try finding two matching power cords, one light and one heavy load item like a vacuum. Heavy guage cords are fine...maybe 25 foot ones or more.

Now plug one into an outlet and add for a three way splitter at the end. Plug in a light, any light. Now plug a vacuum in and flip in on. Notice how much the light dims?

Now turn off the vac and unplug it and also remove the 3 way splitter, plugging back in the lamp. Now plug the second extension cord into the other plug on the same outlet. Then plug the vacuum into the second cord. This puts the light on one cord and the vacuum on the second one.

Now flip back on the vacuum. Notice the light dim again with the load of the vacuum hitting the circuit. But also notice that it won't dim as much as when on the same extension cord!! Wow...now why was that?

Welcome to the principle of impedance! The low impedance end is the outlet. When you add the loss of the extension cord, the load is easier modulated. Make each load independently see the low impedence source and they see less of the load modulating the power. Power demanded by bass can be many times greater than the HF sections.

This is exactly what happens in a speaker with a single run of wire or bi-wiring! Upping the wire size will lessen the effect of course. And if the speaker doesn't demand much power or has a friendlier loading curve, it's less. Or if the amp has a lower output impedance, less effect. But if a higher output impedance, like with a tube amp, then more effect by bi-wiring.

The power woofer section obviously takes care of that for many of the ML models. But the current required to run the stat panel at low impedances is significant. So heavier guage wire can help get the current delivered. Good thing, the heaviest load is increasingly at high frequencies where little sonic material is present. But if your music does demand current from a high frequency hit, then the meat of the music is going to be effected in a bit of a similar fashion.

So, results will vary with the particulars of the situation. But bi-wiring is worth the money in some situations and is certainly possible with any amplifer.
:rocker: Hope that helps that angle some when stuggling with what it all means.

OldMonolith

 

[Gordon]

OldMonolith,

You are correct and I probably should not have used mentioned biwire in that post. Seems my fingers worked faster than the brain.

Gordon

 

[tsmooth]

it's actually 100 watts per channel, 200 combined. How do I "bridge" the channels? Right now I run 2 sets of cables to each of my front speakers, which have 2 sets of binding posts. Would I do the same with the Vantage? Would this feed all 200 watts to the speaker?

This is from the Vantage manual:

Bi-Amplification

The Vantage’s PoweredForce™ woofer is internally powered. Because of this, we do not recommend either active or passive bi-amplification.

The Source only has one set of binding posts so the only speaker I would setup with your current configuration is the Vista.

For my money, I would pick up a used pair of Vantages online for about $3K and worry about the other stuff later :music:

 

[mikroski]

For my money, I would pick up a used pair of Vantages online for about $3K and worry about the other stuff later :music:

Agree, I just audited Vantage with 70W Primaluna Prologue 7 and it more than enough to drive Vantage.

 

[FISH_MAN]

the vantage are really a lot better than the source a lot better! tsmooth is correct get the vantage first and worry about the rest later.

 

[ronning]

I agree, I'm probably best off with the Vantage. I also have no way of auditioning the Vista in person (unless I buy new, with the option of returning). This also seems like the easiest of the set (aside from the Purities) to drive with my current receiver.

With regards to bi-amp / bi-wire: Since I have the cabling (both sets 12 guage), I may as well bi-wire, correct? But in this case, I would *not* use channels 6 and 7 from the receiver, i would just double-up on the front L/R outputs, correct?

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,

I have used an Onkyo TX-SR805 and TX-SR875 as Surround Processors before getting a Integra DTC-9.8. Out of curiosity, I did try the TX-SR875 powering my Vantages. I must say it did surprisingly well. If sticking with a receiver as your amplification, I would highly recommend selling your 705 and purchasing at least a TX-SR805.

The difference between your 705 and the 805 and above is primarily a way stouter amplification section. The 805 and above are rated THX Ultra 2 while the 705 is select. The difference in weight is approximately 20 pounds. The 805/875/905 all shared the same platform. In the current generation, the 806 no longer shares its internals with the 876/906 and is not nearly as much of a killer value.

Accessories 4 less offers some amazing values on new and refurb Onkyo's. I think you can find a TX-SR805 for around 500 dollars. This unit also offers top of the line Burr Brown dacs as well. One of the greatest values ever in a AVR.
Cheers,
ML

 

[Brian_74]

Welcome aboard! I would say go for the Vantage! Look at it as a longer term investment. Now that you've heard them compared to the Source and Purity, you'll always be lusting for them. In the end, getting the Vantage now won't be much more of a hit then the hit you'd take selling the Purity or Source in a couple years (assuming you get hooked on this hobby like most of us ) The Vantage gives you the capacity to significantly upgrade your electronics before the speakers become the limiting factor.

Sure you can go ahead and bi-wire. You are correct about how you would wire it.

 

[roberto]

Hola...I also sell Onkyo here combined with ML. Specially Vantage model for HT, one of the specs that you have to consider is their sensitivity. With the model Vantage and up, you only need 1/3 of the power that you usually needed for old ML models. In other words, where 150 Watts/channel did nice job on Aerius, SL3, Request, Quest, Ascent, Sequel, etc., with only 50 Watts you will be fine with the Vantage, because you can play then at the same sound pressure level than the others. On the other hand, there are a lot of nice low power amplifiers that you can use with Vantage that you can not with the older models because they do need juice. The Onkyo offers you a pre-amp output, so you can add an amplifier to drive any speaker model that you want, or use the Onkyo receiver to drive the Vantage. Remember this, it is better quality watts than quantity watts. The Onkyo amp is good, but it is not a super hi-end power amplifier regardless of price. I use in my HT system an Audio Research power amp to drive my CLSs, I have a Sherwood R-965 as preamp and signal processor. I am having a lot of fun, because I can combine stereo for critical listening, (My Sherwood is modified with good quality caps and resistors, and using low noise transistors in all stages.) Of course it not a Mark Levinson,a Conrad Johnson, Blue Circle, Pass Labs etc) but I do like what I listen. So, another clue is: your liking. Trust your ears, and get the one that you liked most!...Happy listening,
Roberto.