Question re: current ML

[miatancdan]

Why is it that almost all ML speakers except Vista, Theos, CLX, ElectroMotion now have self-powered woofer sections?

I not a fan of class D amplifier sections and for those like me who have really high quality power amplifiers whether it be McIntosh, Pass Labs, Ayre, Bryston etc...there should be more models using passive woofer section.

Seems to be that there is to much of a jump between Theos and CLX

Would be great is there was a ML with larger panel such as Spire, Summit X not using active woofer

Dan

 

[sleepysurf]

Class D amplifiers are particularly well-suited for bass (less so for highs), so it's logical that ML (and some others) are incorporating them into speakers with active woofers. Their use also allows the speakers to be compatible with a larger array of lower-powered amplifiers (even receivers). Given the specs/performance of the Spire and Summit X, I don't think many folks can find fault with that design decision. I suspect the market for a non-active version of those speakers would be even smaller than the CLX market, but who knows, maybe ML will surprise us with such an offering!

 

[miatancdan]

Class D amplifiers are particularly well-suited for bass (less so for highs), so it's logical that ML (and some others) are incorporating them into speakers with active woofers. Their use also allows the speakers to be compatible with a larger array of lower-powered amplifiers (even receivers). Given the specs/performance of the Spire and Summit X, I don't think many folks can find fault with that design decision. I suspect the market for a non-active version of those speakers would be even smaller than the CLX market, but who knows, maybe ML will surprise us with such an offering!

I been working for local stereo shop since 1982. Yes, Class D is used more often for bass ( mostly subwoofers )......but so far they have not been very reliable. I see so many subwoofers returned for service using Class D designs compared to conventional amplifers. Actual ratio about 10 subs needing service ( Class D ) compared to normal subwoofers.

 

[amey01]

This is really a question for ML. That said (as I understand it), there are a few reasons why ML (in particular) are pursuing this.

[[[My opinion only]]].........

First reason is active speakers in general. Contrary to popular belief - and putting aside all the advantages of passive speakers (you can choose your amplification, etc) - active is the best sounding way to manufacture a speaker.

Like-for-like (and that is the big key here), active will sound better each and every time. It just means you have no choice in amplification, and no upgrade path in that sense.

Now, active is particularly suited to ML because the panel is such a hard load to drive. Anything ML can do to make the load easier the better. Active bass assists in this, while still allowing you to choose your own amplification for the panels, where the bulk of your [acute] listening occurs.

 

[MrBT]

Just an idea: it shouldn't be too complicated for ML to implement a bypass for internal amplification. Something like a switch which would let you choose between internal and external amplifier.
I totally agree with miatancd. We buy hi-end, powerfull amplification and one of its important characteristics is how well various amps sounds in lower registers and most does it really good. This important part of choosing lower registers amplification to our likings is somewhat omitted with internal amplification ML speakers.

 

[amey01]

Just an idea: it shouldn't be too complicated for ML to implement a bypass for internal amplification. Something like a switch which would let you choose between internal and external amplifier.
I totally agree with miatancd. We buy hi-end, powerfull amplification and one of its important characteristics is how well various amps sounds in lower registers and most does it really good. This important part of choosing lower registers amplification to our likings is somewhat omitted with internal amplification ML speakers.

Then you'd have a switch in your signal path. No thanks!

I'm not necessarily a fan of built-in amplification either - but I understand the advantages, and I grant ML credit for spending more time and effort in listening and refining their designs than we do.

 

[roberto]

Digital amps like Ice (Bang and Olufsen) love inductive loads as cone woofers. ML uses this amplifier with a mod., that suites to the ML design team, all their need for production. The input impedance for the woofer section on an amplfied model usually is around 4000 ohms, so the user's amplifier load is the panel only...the amplfier does not "read" the woofer built in. You get the quality sound of your bass (the built in input circuit) because it is untouched, and it is reproduced by the ICE class D. I have a dear friend that now he is in ML land. He had the Duntech Sovereing and I said, please do not come into the store, because I have a "David" (small) that can kills "Goliath" (Sovereing). He laugh and said, come on Roberto, how a $ 6000 speaker is going to beat what I have... his first impression was the quality of the bass. He said wow! almost what I do like!, how is the bigger model?,... and he got the Summits. The transparency, inner detail, the floating vocals and musical instruments, the percussion, you name it, drove him into ML sound. Now he is a CLX owner with two Descent Is. I am not sayiing that the Duntech is a bad sounding speaker, no sirs!!! It is one of "those" that really can sing...but my presentation, my enthusiasm, and also his liking, made the change possible. To our ears, Class D ICEpower amplifiers are good. I had sold some ML powered woofers, and never had a complaint or a service issue. I little story to share with you. Happy listening, Roberto.

 

[amey01]

Digital amps like Ice (Bang and Olufsen) love inductive loads as cone woofers. ML uses this amplifier with a mod., that suites to the ML design team, all their need for production. The input impedance for the woofer section on an amplfied model usually is around 4000 ohms, so the user's amplifier load is the panel only...the amplfier does not "read" the woofer built in. You get the quality sound of your bass (the built in input circuit) because it is untouched, and it is reproduced by the ICE class D. I have a dear friend that now he is in ML land. He had the Duntech Sovereing and I said, please do not come into the store, because I have a "David" (small) that can kills "Goliath" (Sovereing). He laugh and said, come on Roberto, how a $ 6000 speaker is going to beat what I have... his first impression was the quality of the bass. He said wow! almost what I do like!, how is the bigger model?,... and he got the Summits. The transparency, inner detail, the floating vocals and musical instruments, the percussion, you name it, drove him into ML sound. Now he is a CLX owner with two Descent Is. I am not sayiing that the Duntech is a bad sounding speaker, no sirs!!! It is one of "those" that really can sing...but my presentation, my enthusiasm, and also his liking, made the change possible. To our ears, Class D ICEpower amplifiers are good. I had sold some ML powered woofers, and never had a complaint or a service issue. I little story to share with you. Happy listening, Roberto.

Those Duntechs are nice, NICE speakers.

 

[shakham]

Then you'd have a switch in your signal path. No thanks!

I'm not necessarily a fan of built-in amplification either - but I understand the advantages, and I grant ML credit for spending more time and effort in listening and refining their designs than we do.

You could easily put a 2nd path that bypasses the amp with a separate input.

I trust ML on this one too....
We trust our subs with internal amplification, don't we?

Similarly, the internal amps in the Vantage/Spire/Summit/etc aren't full range. They only serve below 400Hz.