Power line equipment - types and options

[music again]

Ok, so I've decided I need to take a serious look at the AC going into my equipment. Right now I am just using a basic Monster power surge product with enough outlets for everything I currently own. I have a feeling everything is not right from the AC. I'm probably getting spikes and don't even know it. Another strange thing that happens is that my CD player just for no apparent reason will stop playing. It could be linked to the AC going on, but that doesn't seem consistent.

A few questions for starters:

1. Is it worth replacing my receptacles, or is this a fairy tail. I have seen mention of PS Audio Power Port Classic AC recptacles for $50.00 each list. Does it make sense to start there?

2. I'm not an electrician for sure. I have heard of people putting the receptacle on a single circuit. Does this mean it is has its own circuit breaker? How do you measure what it can handle? Most importantly, what do I tell an electrician I want done if I want to isolate the system?

3. I see all kinds of terms used on these "power-line" products: regenerated power, surge protection, "clean" power, isolated banks, EMI/RFI filtration. What little I know about this says my goals should be at the very least to PROTECT my equipment, to have a stable electrical environment for the system, and be able to power on equipment in a particular order.With that said, what should I be looking for under this category? My dealer carries Panamax, but may be able to get more brands. I'd like to give them my business if at all possible.

4. As a side note, I would like to power off my Vantages after each use. I suppose I could do this using some sort of power-line equipment. Maybe after I replace my power and preamp, the low level woofer noise will go away, but in the mean time, I can't take having them powered on 24/7. Is this not a good thing for the Vantages?

Recommendations/comments welcome!

Music Again

 

[David Matz]

As good as an AMAZING new component

First, I would get dedicated lines from your circuit breaker to your listening room. A couple of dedicated lines would be great - one for your amp, and one for the rest of the stuff. Make sure you have your electrician install some Hubbell outlets on these dedicated lines. (PS Audio outlet you mention is a specially sourced Hubbell outlet.) Also, make sure they are 20 amp and that he uses 10 guage wire for maximum current delivery to your gear.

Second, get a good power conditioner (ESP, Transparent, etc.). Plug all of your stuff except your amp into your power conditioner. Get an awesome aftermarket power cord for your amp, and plug it into the wall (unless you spend mega bucks on the power conditioner.)

Third, get after market cords for your source, preamp, and speakers.

Step 1 you will have to take on faith, but it's well worth it if you have good equipment. You may demo the power equipment to verify for your self that steps 2 and 3 make a worth while difference. The overall results to me are a more quiet background, which results in better detail and a natural flow to the music.

 

[kcl]

Well, the number one thing I would consider is a dedicated line for your listening equipment. Then you can look at either a power conditioner or a Richard Grey line conditioner. (And please note that these provide different functions.)

You should be aware, by the way, that its not going to do you any good to plug your Vantages into a power conditioner. The sole purpose of the A/C power is to 'charge up' the stators on the speakers. It doesn't matter if this power is clean or not, as it doesn't have any direct effect on the sound produced.

 

[tonyc]

I use the PS Audio outlets and could hear a slight difference. A bigger jump in sound quality was gained by adding two 20A dedicated lines to the stereo room from my main switch box (one for the front end and one for my Rowland amp and the Summits). I also believe power line conditioners help ( I use a Shunyata Hydra 8 on the front and a 2 on the Rowland and my Summits). I did think the Shunyata made the Summits quieter. I also use aftermarket power cords on everything I own-best upgrade after interconnects. Be sure to listen before you buy. While there are many good products out there, they all sound different!

 

[music again]

Vantages: On-off after each use - not a good idea?

Well, the number one thing I would consider is a dedicated line for your listening equipment. Then you can look at either a power conditioner or a Richard Grey line conditioner. (And please note that these provide different functions.)

You should be aware, by the way, that its not going to do you any good to plug your Vantages into a power conditioner. The sole purpose of the A/C power is to 'charge up' the stators on the speakers. It doesn't matter if this power is clean or not, as it doesn't have any direct effect on the sound produced.

Tony,

WOW! I checked out your system. AWESOME! :bowdown:

I suspect that you hear dead silence from the Summit woofers when in stand by mode or even with the green light on but no music playing? Not the case with me. I do have the Vantages plugged in to the Monster surge protector and right now, I unplug it (not just turn it off) after each use, which obviously powers down everything, including the Vantages. I do this for two reasons, to protect the system (from lightning or whatever) and so I don't have to hear the low level noise of the Vantage woofers. Could this damage the Vantages, seeing as they have to 'charge up" before each use?

I definitely have issues with electricity in my home. I would bet there are a lot of spikes and just inconsistent current. Brown outs, or lights going out for a second or two are common in the Summer. I can tell you I will look into the dedicated circuit on two outlets fortunately located directly behind everything.

I do have the Descent i plugged into a seperate outlet. Do I need a dedicated line their too? I was thinking of the Panamax Sub2, which plugs right into the wall outlet.

The "different functions" you mentioned above is the problem. I was looking at the Panamax 1500-UPS, and M5300 combo. This is approximately $1,500 for both units. There are so many versions of "power-line" products out there, it makes my head spin! Based on my comments regarding power issues in my home:

What exact funcions should I be looking for?

Thanks for the help!

JM

 

[David Matz]

You should be aware, by the way, that its not going to do you any good to plug your Vantages into a power conditioner. The sole purpose of the A/C power is to 'charge up' the stators on the speakers. It doesn't matter if this power is clean or not, as it doesn't have any direct effect on the sound produced.

My Ascents are more quiet, have greater detail, and flow better when plugged into the power distributor. The benefits are much, much smaller than for the source, amp, or the preamp, though. If you can find a product with enough outlets to plug your speakers into it at a price in your budget, get it. If not, you could do it later with a separate 2 outlet product. I have not tried it with the Vantages, but I would be surprised if they do not improve also. But, please try for yourself because the benefits are smaller than for the other components and you may want to spend your $ elsewhere.

The good and the bad is that everything matters. You have to make decisions and tradeoffs.

 

[music again]

What equipment is used?

My Ascents are more quiet, have greater detail, and flow better when plugged into the power distributor. The benefits are much, much smaller than for the source, amp, or the preamp, though. If you can find a product with enough outlets to plug your speakers into it at a price in your budget, get it. If not, you could do it later with a separate 2 outlet product. I have not tried it with the Vantages, but I would be surprised if they do not improve also. But, please try for yourself because the benefits are smaller than for the other components and you may want to spend your $ elsewhere.

The good and the bad is that everything matters. You have to make decisions and tradeoffs.

Dave,

What specific power distribution equipment do you use and why did you chose it?

Thanks!

JM

 

[Kaboomnash]

For my Vantages I use 2 each, Belkin PF40's. I originally bought two PF40's due to the distance between system components. After reconfiguring my room I now use one Belkin for Audio and one for Video components.
I did alot of comparison of quality, appearance and price before deciding on the Belkins. I replaced a Monster Reference PowerCenter HTS 3500 MKII, Ultra-high 2775 joule rating, with ten outlets; moved it to the master bedroom system.
I noticed Amazon has really good prices on the PF40 and the PF60's.

Lee

 

[MOON]

Yes, aftermarket outlets do make a difference. I currently have Ps Audio but have switched to Oyaide R1's. I don't have the R1's installed yet.

A dedicated line is right from the box to 1 outlet. Go for the 10 guage romex and 20 amp circuit as others have said.

There are powercords with built in conditioners such as the Blue Circle 68 which Gilbert designed especiallyfor Martin Logans and the Foundation Research LC 1's which I use. I have the LC 1's plugged into an Audience adept response conditioner as well.So, everything in my system including the amp is plugged into the Audience conditioner.The logans get double condirioning through the Adept resonse conditioner as well as the Foundation Research LC1's.

My system is in the living room now where I have 3 dedicated lines. I am in the process of building a dedicated room in the basement which will have the R1 outlets. Even though I just need the 1 outlet for the conditioner, I will run another line just in case there is a need down the road for it.

I read recently on an Audiogon thread that the new Synergistic Tesla cords are something else . They have ic's and speaker cables now and the pc's are coming out soon.The prices are very high.

 

[sleepysurf]

I recently ran a single dedicated 20A line for audio, with a generic "hospital grade" outlet (cost me under $300). I can't say it improved fidelity, but DID eliminate all the electrical glitches I was experiencing with my system (I previously had all my A/V gear on a single circuit, along with a ceiling fan, and multiple ceiling lights). I am currently still using a Monster HTS 3500 MKII, but might relegate that to my video end, and get something else for audio. For those wanting an alternative to pricey after-market power cords, I highly recommend the Volex 17604 shielded cords, which can be found for under $20 ea on the net. They are frequently cited as the best bang for the buck in other audio forums.

 

[Craig]

A few questions for starters:

1. Is it worth replacing my receptacles, or is this a fairy tail. I have seen mention of PS Audio Power Port Classic AC recptacles for $50.00 each list. Does it make sense to start there?

Recommendations/comments welcome!

Music Again

Yes it makes good sense to replace your receptacles. Do you know how old they are and how they have been used? How old is the house? It makes sense to replace older, lower quality receptacles with hospital grade or better. Why risk a weak power connection for your audio equipment? Older receptacles can be loose causing an unintentional power loss or may even cause arcing if it's bad enough. Not a good thing for a inexpensive electrical item to do to your expensive audio gear.

You should be aware, by the way, that its not going to do you any good to plug your Vantages into a power conditioner. The sole purpose of the A/C power is to 'charge up' the stators on the speakers. It doesn't matter if this power is clean or not, as it doesn't have any direct effect on the sound produced.

This is true of most electrostats but the Summits and Vantages also have an internal amplifier to drive the woofers and an AC sourced power supply to provide a charge for the panels. Power conditioning, surge protection, or going all out with a dedicated power source is worth considering for these two models.

 

[tonyc]

Tony,

WOW! I checked out your system. AWESOME! :bowdown:

I suspect that you hear dead silence from the Summit woofers when in stand by mode or even with the green light on but no music playing? Not the case with me. I do have the Vantages plugged in to the Monster surge protector and right now, I unplug it (not just turn it off) after each use, which obviously powers down everything, including the Vantages. I do this for two reasons, to protect the system (from lightning or whatever) and so I don't have to hear the low level noise of the Vantage woofers. Could this damage the Vantages, seeing as they have to 'charge up" before each use?

I definitely have issues with electricity in my home. I would bet there are a lot of spikes and just inconsistent current. Brown outs, or lights going out for a second or two are common in the Summer. I can tell you I will look into the dedicated circuit on two outlets fortunately located directly behind everything.

I do have the Descent i plugged into a seperate outlet. Do I need a dedicated line their too? I was thinking of the Panamax Sub2, which plugs right into the wall outlet.

The "different functions" you mentioned above is the problem. I was looking at the Panamax 1500-UPS, and M5300 combo. This is approximately $1,500 for both units. There are so many versions of "power-line" products out there, it makes my head spin! Based on my comments regarding power issues in my home:

What exact funcions should I be looking for?

Thanks for the help!

JM

My Summits have always been totally silent. I did all the electrical enhancements when I used Apogee Divas except for the Hydra 8 on the front end. Turning everything off is certainly the safest for your equipment BUT I think the Vantages and Summits woofer amps are ICE based (class D or whatever). All the reviews I have read suggest that this kind of amp sounds best powered on all the time. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can enlighten us further! I don't have any functions on my PLCs that I am aware of other than surge protection. I have been told not to buy one which limits current. I have my sub in the surround system (Descent) plugged into the same 20A line as my Proceed Amp 5 in order to decrease chances of a ground loop.

 

[tonepub]

I use all Running Springs products and couldn't be happier. I have a Jaco on my system in the house, a Haley on my Plasma and my main system has a Danielle with a dedicated 20 amp line for all of my low level components and another Jaco on a 20 amp dedicated line for my Premier 350 power amplifier.

I also plug my Summits in there as well. Honestly, I think I hear a tiny bit improvement, but the RSA gear provides protection from any spikes, etc. so its still a good idea.

Most RSA dealers will give you a 14 day home trial. I can't suggest a power product higher!!

 

[JonFo]

I also highly recommend the suggestions from those above that cover improving the baseline power feed to the equipment area with dedicated lines, upgrading the outlets and bringing in some kind of surge and power conditioning.

No one has advocated balanced power yet, so I will.
I highly recommended balanced (or technical) power for the entire rig, including the power to the ‘logans. Depending on your amps, this could demand a very big commitment of $’s and space, as a 3 or 5Kva balanced power set up is pretty big and heavy (my 5Kva weighs 180lbs).

I use and highly recommend the EquiTech product line.

I draw the line at power cords. I don’t use any aftermarket products.
See my system description for additional views on power.

 

[tonepub]

This looks very intriguing....

How much did the whole system cost if you don't mind my asking?

 

[sleepysurf]

Jeff, you should do a Tone Audio feature on Jonathon's system! It's one of the most sophisticated A/V setups ever created!

In fact, he's got enough material for a SERIES of articles, including a) the design and building of his Infinite Baffle Sub/Center, b) his power plant c) how he integrated his power modules, sound processors, amps, etc. etc. d) his video setup/server and e) how it's all remote controlled, including ambient lighting.

 

[JonFo]

This looks very intriguing....

How much did the whole system cost if you don't mind my asking?

The 5Kva Toroid (in a 24x24x8 Nema1 box) cost about $3,200 back in 2000, plus several hundred for freight.

The relays, filters and outlets necessary to 'roll-my-own' power distribution grid with full automation cost me another $800 to $900.
The time to design, assemble and test was about 30Hrs.
So all in, less than $4K in cash plus some sweat equity.

A single box, A/V system friendly, fully built out EquiTech 5KVA model costs about $7K.

So I saved a bit, plus got exactly what I needed by going DIY.

 

[David Matz]

Dave,

What specific power distribution equipment do you use and why did you chose it?

Thanks!

JM

I have Hubbell outlets on my dedicated lines. They felt more solidly built and at least twice the weight of Levitan. The PS audio, and I believe Shunyata also use Hubbell, but dip it in some metal 14 times so the coating will not come off. Just don't yank it in and out 50 zillion times and you will be ok.

I like the Transparent cords on the power amp, straight into the 20 amp outlet. Does a great job with the bass.

For power distribution, I like ESP. At its price point it would be hard to beat it. It has 4 sets of filtered outlets, so I can plug in everything including the speakers. Blew away (the very good) Transparent's product at it's price point, and I am sure it would blow away the Shunyata product at that price point, just reading the specs. You can pay 3 times as much for the top of the line Transparent and Shunyata, and you will get different, but may or may not get better.

 

[tonepub]

Spent a weekend of very careful listening and the Jaco definitely cleaned up the sound of my Summits.

Though you might think that because the speaker is just plugged into the line to charge the panels, there is still noise in your power line that goes into the bias charge.

When listening very carefully to a lot of music with quiet passages, there was a very noticeable decrease in grain. Also, the Running Springs products will smooth out the voltage variations which helps too.

 

[music again]

Going With The Summits!!

Spent a weekend of very careful listening and the Jaco definitely cleaned up the sound of my Summits.

Though you might think that because the speaker is just plugged into the line to charge the panels, there is still noise in your power line that goes into the bias charge.

When listening very carefully to a lot of music with quiet passages, there was a very noticeable decrease in grain. Also, the Running Springs products will smooth out the voltage variations which helps too.

I spoke with my dealer this morning and I will be trading in/up from the Vantage Descent i combo to the Summits! I am excited about this for sure! I believe that with the larger panel, along with the lower cross overpoint, and going from 34 to 24 on the bottom end, and not having to integrate the sub, I will get better mid range and bottom end, while shedding another piece of equipment, not to mention interconnects.

I now really want to get the power cleaned up prior to the new Summits arriving!

What exact power equipment are you using, from the wall to the speaker, and what is all of you equipment plugged into? Seperate line for the equipment as well?

Thanks!!!!!!

JM