Power Cords

[Milesdavis9]

What experience (positive) have members achieved using Third party power cords on ESL 13A/15A speakers? Thank you for your input.

 

[GW1800]

This is a very dark and controversial subject for many yet for others its a no brainier to update. There will be many opinions from zip cord to very expensive cables in the low 5's. There are many that claim that cables in general make absolutely no difference yet they have not tested to hear if there is a difference for themselves. They can't explain in some scientific or logical way how it could be possible the last 3' from a wall could possible improve the sound so of course to them cables will make no difference. Its kind of sad as they are very much short changing their system sound in my opinion.

The other side is of course cables make a difference like myself since I use what I have to test - my ears. What I can tell you is power is king for cables trumping interconnects and speaker cables. Not that they don't make a difference as they most certainly do but power will get you the most for the dollars spent. For myself I have Nordost Try 2 for the 13's in my media room and just updated to Odin 2 for my 212 subs and CLX's. Previously had Odin and can say for sure even though they are just a few hours old they have raised the sound of my 2 channel system to a much higher level. I'm sure many will respond that I'm crazy but I follow my ears and that is my advice to you to do the same. There are many great cables out there with many offering samples to test take advantage and do so. You have some good speakers with internal amps they will reward your ears with good power. If you go down that path it would be interesting for you to share your journey by replying to the thread.

 

[roberto]

Hola Milesdaves9.

My experience is that it is better to be over than be shorter. In other words, the use of a heavy gauge will provide more benefits than be tight. You can touch the connectors plugged to the device or the wall/line conditioner. If they are a little bit warm, this means that the demand of energy is more than what the connector/wire is supplying. Heavy gauge will make to have these connectors to run cooler. You will tell if there is a difference. If you can not tell the difference is OK too. Sometimes there is a big difference. Specially at the bass deep musical notes. Also, some power cords have built in filters for RFI and EMI contamination. Sometimes our devices are affected by this kind of dirt. Let your ears decide. As GW1800 pointed out, it is a controversial subject. Me? Of course I can tell the difference.

Happy listening!

 

[twich54]

Miles, all good advice here.

My 2 cents are as follows ......... can better 'wire' make a difference, for sure. Does one need to take out a second mortgage to do so, absolutely not !

Simply put, when building your audio system, it's speakers and room 1 and 2, everything else falls to 3rd and beyond. Anyone that tells you different is not worth listening to IMO .......

 

[amey01]

Is there a difference?.......probably.

Is your money best invested in more traditional ways to improve sound quality?.......absolutely!

I see it this way - building speakers (and any audio equipment) is all about compromise. Every piece of equipment could sound better - that wouldn't be hard - but at what cost? That is what manufacturers have to balance so that at the end of the process, they come up with a viable and feasible product.

So, the manufacturer is always thinking - "what can I do to produce the most viable product?" - the best "bang for buck". As fun as it would be - if manufacturers could viably improve the sound quality of their equipment by simply changing a power cord, we'd see many more of them doing exactly that. Because it would give them a competitive edge on and help their product compete on a crowded market.

But alas, we don't see that. Because manufacturers know (like I know) that the money is best invested elsewhere.

 

[GW1800]

Is there a difference?.......probably.

Is your money best invested in more traditional ways to improve sound quality?.......absolutely!

I see it this way - building speakers (and any audio equipment) is all about compromise. Every piece of equipment could sound better - that wouldn't be hard - but at what cost? That is what manufacturers have to balance so that at the end of the process, they come up with a viable and feasible product.

So, the manufacturer is always thinking - "what can I do to produce the most viable product?" - the best "bang for buck". As fun as it would be - if manufacturers could viably improve the sound quality of their equipment by simply changing a power cord, we'd see many more of them doing exactly that. Because it would give them a competitive edge on and help their product compete on a crowded market.

But alas, we don't see that. Because manufacturers know (like I know) that the money is best invested elsewhere.

I think you are missing the obvious.

First of I think we can all agree that most power cords supplied by manufacturers including ML's except for maybe the CLX's are very generic and basic. A power cord is supplied so that as an end user you can power up their unit directly not needing to purchase a power cord. In my mind that is the only reason a power cord is supplied with a product including high end speakers and components. Many of the manuals I have read including ML's actually state to change out the supplied power cord for a better quality one. They don't say that the cord supplied is junk but pretty much say that by suggesting a higher quality cord will make their unit perform better. Also the reason manufacturers don't supply better power cords is just exactly what brand would they supply and at what cost? The end user may not like that brand and now he has paid extra for this cord when purchasing the component. The manufacturer will never do this as it will raise the cost of his product and if a competitor does not supply a similar cost cord then they are at a disadvantage in the selling price. Also just exactly what cord would they supply as they range from a $50 to $20,000+ it just a no win for the manufacturer so they supply a very basic power cord. The disbelievers of power cords improving the sound are now perfectly happy and those that do replace a cord can do so at the price point and cord manufacturer of their choice.

The supplied power cords are like most feet supplied with components. They are more like spacers with little isolation if any. Granted some are much better then others but mostly they are there for ventilation or spacing only. Again why spend a bunch of money as a manufacturer if many will not replace them anyway. Just like the power cables.

 

[timm]

Right. I agree with this. It’s really about profit margins - not some dogmatic view of power cords! Haha.

 

[amey01]

A power cord is supplied so that as an end user you can power up their unit directly not needing to purchase a power cord. In my mind that is the only reason a power cord is supplied with a product

How then, do you explain captive power cords (on some very high end gear including ARC over years gone by).

The IEC receptacle is there so that they don't lose the market for those who want to change - not because it serves any purpose.

Also the reason manufacturers don't supply better power cords is just exactly what brand would they supply and at what cost? The end user may not like that brand and now he has paid extra for this cord when purchasing the component.

They don't seem to have a problem supplying a particular brand of valve or output transistor or cap or binding post. Coming up with a "best compromise" solution is precisely what we are paying the manufacturer to do!

Why aren't amps supplied sans-valves? Or with cheap Chinese ones to "get you started"? To the contrary, manufacturers sometimes to to extreme lengths selecting hand-picked, matched and sometimes highly exotic valves for their equipment. You hear manufacturers talk about long searches for a valve that had the performance characteristics they were after. Why? Because they make a difference.

The manufacturer will never do this as it will raise the cost of his product and if a competitor does not supply a similar cost cord then they are at a disadvantage in the selling price.

BINGO! You just said it. It will raise the cost without providing a commensurate increase in performance - leaving anyone silly enough to do this at a disadvantage!

disadvantage

If it provided a commensurate increase in performance, there would be no disadvantage, would there?

Again why spend a bunch of money as a manufacturer if many will not replace them anyway. Just like the power cables.

Again - they're perfectly happy to spend a bunch of money on valves - even though tube-rolling is a much more prominent passtime than power-cable-rolling.

Look at the marvellous 15A speaker - a solid product at $15K. It could easily be turned into a $30k product by upgrading the power cables, binding posts, caps, speaker cable and all the other crap that audiophiles love to do. Do you think they would still have a competitive product at $30K, or do you think there would be better ways to spend money improving the product?

NOW: None of this is to say you're not hearing a difference. Just whether that difference is worth the expense.

by suggesting a higher quality cord will make their unit perform better.

Yeah - they say something like "the speaker will respond to a change of power cord" or words to that effect. They say this because it would otherwise be so easy to turn this around on the speaker. They don't want to be "poo-hooed by supercilious audiophiles who will otherwise say "well obviously their product is not of high enough resolution to show the difference my prized power cords make". They don't say this phrase because it would be a wise investment decision to change the power cord.

When we've (as we all have here on this site) invested $000thousands in our audio systems, it makes for quite an attractive proposition if someone comes along and says "give me a few thousand more and I'll make your system sound even better". When they throw the phrase out like "you're not getting all the sound you paid for" then they make you feel almost silly for not handing them your cash. Your money - your choice, I guess.

It would be so nice if we could improve our systems by doing easy things like changing power cables, or throwing a slab of exotic wood on top of our equipment. Sadly though, it just ain't that simple.

 

[GW1800]

How then, do you explain captive power cords (on some very high end gear including ARC over years gone by).

The IEC receptacle is there so that they don't lose the market for those who want to change - not because it serves any purpose.




They don't seem to have a problem supplying a particular brand of valve or output transistor or cap or binding post. Coming up with a "best compromise" solution is precisely what we are paying the manufacturer to do!

Why aren't amps supplied sans-valves? Or with cheap Chinese ones to "get you started"? To the contrary, manufacturers sometimes to to extreme lengths selecting hand-picked, matched and sometimes highly exotic valves for their equipment. You hear manufacturers talk about long searches for a valve that had the performance characteristics they were after. Why? Because they make a difference.




BINGO! You just said it. It will raise the cost without providing a commensurate increase in performance - leaving anyone silly enough to do this at a disadvantage!



If it provided a commensurate increase in performance, there would be no disadvantage, would there?




Again - they're perfectly happy to spend a bunch of money on valves - even though tube-rolling is a much more prominent passtime than power-cable-rolling.

Look at the marvellous 15A speaker - a solid product at $15K. It could easily be turned into a $30k product by upgrading the power cables, binding posts, caps, speaker cable and all the other crap that audiophiles love to do. Do you think they would still have a competitive product at $30K, or do you think there would be better ways to spend money improving the product?

NOW: None of this is to say you're not hearing a difference. Just whether that difference is worth the expense.



Yeah - they say something like "the speaker will respond to a change of power cord" or words to that effect. They say this because it would otherwise be so easy to turn this around on the speaker. They don't want to be "poo-hooed by supercilious audiophiles who will otherwise say "well obviously their product is not of high enough resolution to show the difference my prized power cords make". They don't say this phrase because it would be a wise investment decision to change the power cord.

When we've (as we all have here on this site) invested $000thousands in our audio systems, it makes for quite an attractive proposition if someone comes along and says "give me a few thousand more and I'll make your system sound even better". When they throw the phrase out like "you're not getting all the sound you paid for" then they make you feel almost silly for not handing them your cash. Your money - your choice, I guess.

It would be so nice if we could improve our systems by doing easy things like changing power cables, or throwing a slab of exotic wood on top of our equipment. Sadly though, it just ain't that simple.

WOW sure hit a nerve with you!!! I'm without words at this point - Roger and out.

 

[Bernard]

A while ago, on Canuck Audio Mart, I saw a PS Audio C7 power cord going for about $50, so I bought it for my Mac Mini, on which my music server is based, thinking I would sell it if there was no improvement. The seller was in town, so no shipping cost (maybe a dollar for the gas to pick it up).

I wasn’t expecting much, but there was a small improvement in the sound, so I kept it.

 

[ttocs]

These things I know::
This is a photo of the 12 gauge wires running in the metal conduits in my house for the 20A A/V circuits:


This is what's inside one of my amps none of which is 12 gauge:


And this is one of the power cables I made using 12 gauge cord:


I made my first power cord because the wrong one was supplied with one of my amps (bought a floor model). It was a cord rated for 10 Amps, not 15A as was shipped from the manufacturer that the dealer lost track of. There was a difference in sound, mostly at upper volume.

I figure it this way, I've got 12 gauge in the walls, 12 gauge in the power cords, and whatever is in the amps so the power cord is not choking anything that could possibly be available to the amps. Same is true for the powered ML speakers, subs, etc. The only further improvement I can think of would be to use greenfield extending from the wall boxes and have one continuous set of wires running from the panel to the IEC connector which plugs into the amp (which would be an illegal configuration). That would reduce the connections to just one at each end of the wires coming from the electric panel, and all of it would be shielded.

 

[MOON]

I improved my sound with Foundation Research LC 1 power cords which have a built in conditioner. I also added Synergistic research blue fuses to them which again bettered the sound. Blue circle also made a similar power cord called a BC 68. Both com up for sale on either www.canuckaudiomart.com or www.usaudiomart.com

Here is a picture of a LC 1 https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...ch-lc1-integrated-power-cord-and-conditioner/