Panel/Woofer integration issues on Vantages and other "small panel" Logans

[ralflar]

For a while I have been suspecting such integration issues to be the root cause for the compressed stage height I am hearing from the Vantages. I had the same issues with the Aeon-i which preceded them.

I tried tilting them forward and backward, experimented with toe-in angles and listening distance as permitted by my room which is (still) void of acoustic treatments. In the listening position my ears are at about the same height as the middle of the panels. Here is what I hear:

Particularly the deeper male voices are positioned too low. Female voices are generally better. Many instruments are rendered at a position which is too high in relationship to voices. Instrument positions can appear to come from different heights depending on whether bass or mids/highs are played.

The effect with rich voices like Jimmy Witherspoon's (before the throat cancer befell him) is rather odd: I can sometimes hear him singing both with his mouth and his solar plexus! In order words, bass/mid bass content tends to reduce the sound stage height.

The Vantage, and the Aeon-i I had before them, cross over at 400Hz/450Hz.

I wonder:

Do you experience a similar effect with your Vantage/Vista/Aeon/Aerius?

Do those of you who upgraded to Summits (much lower x-over) experience the same effect?

BTW, Jimmy Witherspoon's "Big Blues" SACD is a superb sounding recording of wonderful music, if you like bluesy Jazz.

And, can you see where this might be leading me?

 

[ralflar]

:bump:

Guys, as nice as the Vantages (and the Aeon-i I had before them) are overall, the stage height issue really bugs me. Please share your own related insights and experiences.

 

[Joey_V]

I dont hear what you are hearing.... not sure if it's the room interacting with certain frequency bands. I will add this, as I moved up the electronics, the images stabilized more and more, and the height has more or less resided in the 5' to 6' range.

 

[cstory]

I don't notice shifting images with my Aerius i's. You didn't mention how far you sit away from the speakers. I could imagine that if you sat too close, there would not be enough distance for the output of the woofer and the panel to merge together. Or like Joey said, there may be somthing particular to your room that emphasizes the difference.

Chuck

 

[roberto]

:musicnote: Hola Raflar...just as an experiment, have you tried to lift them at least 8" from the floor and listen what happens with the stage?...try it, you might like it!...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[amey01]

I have not had any issues with my Vistas or the Aerius that preceeded them. I'd say Joey has a point though - perhaps try to play with positioning - you may be sitting too close, or you may need to try tilting the speakers forward or back. These things are annoying but usually solvable.

Good luck!

 

[twich54]

Ralf, Good evening, I have been listning trying to pick up on any of the 'imaging / placement' issues that you are speaking of and I can't hear anything out of place . I know others have mention speaker tilt, sorry I don't have the answer !

 

[ralflar]

Guys, thanks for the feedback. So you do not experience this effect. I think we can exclude the electronics because those just drive the speaker as a whole and have neither the awareness nor the means to excite the panel differently at different heights. Which leaves my ears and my room/setup. I don't think my ears are different. Now we have it down to room and setup. Looks like I do not need Summits to resolve the issue then. What a pitty, but I may actually look into room treatment and buying a decent car instead. I've drooled over Vettes, M3s, RS4s, 911s for years. The upcoming Lexus IS-F could be killer, if they are going to make a coupe or cabrio.

Anyway, regarding the questions which came up. Perhaps there is still hope .

My room is 17' x 11' with vaulted ceilings. Logans are along the short wall framing a window with blinds. Carpet floor; standard sheet rock walls. I tried speaker distances between 6' and 10'. The Logans are a bit over 6' apart, about 4' from the front wall. I tried toe-in angles between extreme and 1/3rd technique. In-between gives me the best compromise between spaciousness and acoustic impact. Tried the tilting game, too. :shrug: I thought about raising the speaker as roberto suggested, alas, I do not have proper stands. Anything hollow or ridgety does not qualify.

???

 

[Dreamer]

I've noticed this too. My Sequels (although they have their own issues when it comes to ESL/woofer integration) throw a MUCH taller soundstage than the Vantages.

Perhaps, dear readers, this is because the Vantage/Vista/Summits are about a full foot shorter than the Sequel/Request/Odysey/Monolith - generation speakers...

I have found the ESL/woofer integration in the newest ML speakers to be excellent (compared to the older Ml speakers), and their ability to reproduce spacial detail is also far superior to the older MLs. So I don't think their "short soundstage" is an artifact of their crossovers or ESL/woofer integration or any performance characteristic. It's just that they throw a shorter soundstage because they are considerably SHORTER than previos models.

--Richard

 

[Joey_V]

I really dont know what to say Raflar... I'm going to ponder on this one on my drive home tonight...

 

[ralflar]

Another short way to describe my woes: imagine guitars at chest height of the singer(s) - "chin on guitar". I bet this would look funny on stage!

There are probably two effects at work here. 1) instruments such as lead guitars and the higher octaves of pianos are placed too high in relation to voices. 2) Bass rich voices smear vertically. OTOH, saxophones tend to stay put as the play through the registers. The stage height per se is not a problem.

Still clueless. Noone here hears anything like this???

 

[roberto]

Another short way to describe my woes: imagine guitars at chest height of the singer(s) - "chin on guitar". I bet this would look funny on stage!

There are probably two effects at work here. 1) instruments such as lead guitars and the higher octaves of pianos are placed too high in relation to voices. 2) Bass rich voices smear vertically. OTOH, saxophones tend to stay put as the play through the registers. The stage height per se is not a problem.

Still clueless. Noone here hears anything like this???

Hola Raflar. My Vantages are doing great. The stage that I have is at the same height of my seating, in other words, at my ear´s level. If I stand up, I do loose highs, but I do no have speakers playing, I have musician(s) playing for me. I love all the registers, bass is good, but not the best, upper bass is better, voices=male(s) are robust and not too forward as I do get from female(s) voices...violin(s) are not strident, they are silky and very good in timbre...cymbals and percussion are fantastic...overall I do like them a lot. I am using cooper speaker wire, not the very expensive one as Harmonic Tech but using the same tech (mono-crystal) and my pre-amp both tubes...processor belcanto and cd transport levinson...it is a truly high end sound...dynamics, and instruments presentations is differente than the other ML stuff. I do love them and what they are doing to my music. Of what I think regarding your problem, it seems room problem, not the speaker´s itself...I wish you a very happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[tonyc]

ralflar I have experienced this with Summits as well. Try changing listening height. I also spiked mine on Black Diamond racing pucks and this seemed to help. I still sometimes hear this but it is now recording dependent.

 

[ralflar]

Hi there, Roberto. I have no complaints about the sound of the music per se as it is reproduced by the Vantages. The layering in depth is appropriate as is the separation of instruments/performers in width. Instruments and singers do have "body". I can "see" these and hear them breathe/resonate on good recordings. It is fascinating and very involving, too. What I want to improve is the vertical accuracy and resolution of the rendered stage images. It would add to the realism.

Like you said, so far everything points to room acoustics. Damn, I was looking forward to "fix" these problems by upgrading to Summits.

 

[ralflar]

Tony, Richard,

It is good to finally read that I am not the only one hearing this. What is the best way to elevate Vantages other than polished and spiked granite blocks?

 

[tonyc]

The BDR pucks I am using work well but are about 45 bucks apiece and you need 8. They do make it easy to move the speakers without ruining the wood floor!

 

[garmtz]

Maybe you are hearing what you are supposed to hear? A singer emanates sound from both the solar plexus and the mouth, which is apparent especially with recordings which are not close-miked.

 

[ralflar]

Garmtz,

How interesting. I did not know that. Would the volume coming from both locations be comparable? When I can hear the effect, they are.

Even without the effect, "dark" voices tend to be reproduced too low in relation to the height of, say, guitars. As in "chin on guitar".

 

[Joey_V]

Garmtz,

How interesting. I did not know that. Would the volume coming from both locations be comparable? When I can hear the effect, they are.

Even without the effect, "dark" voices tend to be reproduced too low in relation to the height of, say, guitars. As in "chin on guitar".

It may just be the recording or the way the mike was positioned... try the song piece on another speaker.

 

[ralflar]

Sorry Joey, I don't have any other pair of speakers which is even close to the quality or physical height of the Vantages. Nor as enjoyable. Besides, the chin-on-guitar effect is obvious with many recordings both CD and SACD. I heard it with the Aeon-i, too, and had hoped that the Vantages would improve upon this aspect. Also, it is there with Arcam, Denon, SB sources...