Panel horizontal tension

[Rich]

What many people don't get is that you can lean on the tension rig all you want, but the final horizontal tension in the panel is going to be limited by various factors. My long post in this thread shows what limits the horizontal tension to a very low level. Why some people get all huffy when I apply Newton's Laws to their beloved speaker... ehh, I don't care to comment.

Lets not be dishonest, now. People got huffy because you gave erroneous information and then refused to accept it. As I posted above, and you keep intentionally ignoring, this whole discussion began because you stated that it shouldn't be any harder to apply Mylar to a larger panel because there is absolutely no horizontal tension applied because it is impossible to put horizontal tension on a curved panel. One look at the video Ken posted of a worker applying Mylar to a panel shows this comment to be patently false. Since then, you have refused to admit you might have misspoken, instead chasing strawmen and carefully backtracking on your original statement. It is this kind of childish behavior that gets people all "huffy."

Edit: to be clear, this discussion was never really about panel tension per se; it was about how difficult it would be to apply the Mylar to a wider panel vs a narrower panel. It is harder applying Mylar by hand to a larger panel because the worker must apply some horizontal tension to the Mylar as they are applying it. All your other comments about ratios of vertical to horizontal tension were just straw-men arguments to try to avoid any admission that your original statement was incorrect.

 

[Rich]

Yes bonzo, I was wrong about the thread title.

GG

What? An admission that you were wrong? On a public forum, no less? The horror! Gordon, wouldn't it have been much smarter to start a new thread debating the density and resonant frequencies of shakti stones vs shun mook discs in an effort to distract folks from the fact that you made a mistake and at the same time impress them all with your superior knowledge of physics? Surely that would have worked.

/end sarcasm

 

[Gordon Gray]

Rich,

In all seriousness and for those who have tracked this website and my posts over the years, forum members know that I have apologized on numerous occasions, and pretty quickly, once I realized I made an error in judgment and / or in fact.

If I recall correctly, the last time was when I was discussing the YG Acoustic speakers (prior to my subsequent ill fated decision / journey in purchasing the Kipod Signature II) and got over defensive by some comments that were made. Thank you Justin, beek, Adam and others for understanding.

Seems to be the "right" thing to do but that's just me.

After all, we are all human beings and prone to making mistakes from time to time.

By the way, I wish everyone a wonderful Memorial Day weekend. I'm going golfing tomorrow for the first time this year. I sent an e-mail to "ground worm central" warning those critters who hang out on the course I'm going to play to be "very careful" tomorrow.

Gordon

 

[User211]

Pst.

I've been playing with 18 Shun Moon discs, and my verdict is....

 

[User211]

... I dare not say. Well, at least in public.

 

[bonzo]

... I dare not say. Well, at least in public.

Lol, I will cause the thread to close.

 

[InterMechanico]

... I dare not say. Well, at least in public.

Please tell us! Or send me quick PM if you have a moment. Yes or No will suffice

 

[User211]

Only if Roberto gives permission. I promised him I'd say nowt.

 

[Dougster]

Oh do tell us. I can't stand the horizontal tension!

 

[Rich]

Oh do tell us. I can't stand the horizontal tension!

Have you not been paying attention? It's a curved disc. There can be no horizontal tension! It's all vertical.

 

[Dougster]

Have you not been paying attention? It's a curved disc. There can be no horizontal tension! It's all vertical.

Well..... I am deeply deeply sorry for my lack of attention.I am however vertically tense awaiting Justin's verdict but "not at all = a little bit" horizontally tense awaiting his judgment. Am I getting there??

 

[User211]

Removed post thought the better of it.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Yes or no or maybe or depends

The truth will free you my British friend.

Suffice to say you have been wonderfully open in the past, in your own unique way.

It's a simple yes, you can hear the impact, or no you can't. :music:

Drumroll ...................................

 

[roberto]

Hola. Well I am going to say something that I know I am going to be nailed. The wonderful sound of music. Here at this forum, what we most love is music, and a little beyond than that. We love to listen the musician(s) playing for us in our own place. Martin Logan speakers are one of the brands that offer to us this, but with a clarity and very easy to understand what the musician(s) are doing and the fun that they are having together. On this hobby, we have not only the speakers, we have a lot of different kinds of gear to make this image, this stage, possible. Also, we all listen different. Some like uncolored and others might like full of colors. Others, just enough of all these, then a question arise. Who is right? Who has the truth? My answer is: my ears. What I do like and listen, not necessary must be your liking. The nuances in the music, for some might not be important, for others, could be very important.

I am a believer of the SMD, and all of you know that. Justin had spent some time by now with them, and he is convinced. He told me it is purely snake oil. He invited three friends along, and they listen with and without the SMD, and did not hear a difference. Nothing. And I really respect that. Not all of us might like what they do to the music. I did the same thing here. I called three good friends, and I do respect their listening abilities, and the result was...two did like with the SMD, and the other said: you should buy more music instead expending all this money on this phony SMD. So, I am always making comparisons with food. Some people hate onions, or mustard. Others love tomato sauce. Sound systems are like food. A little dash of this and that, will make your food to taste different, but not necessary better... Getting back to the SMD, I have the spatial control, and if I take one of the stands, which it is next to the speaker, this side immediately after the stand is moved of its position, the speaker side is almost dead, and something is missing. You put back the stand with the SMDs and the stage is pristine, solid and stable. All of them agreed with this. For me, this is important. The number three, said, I can live without that, and still, your system sound is great and I love it...I do not give a penny for that!. So, this convinced me, that the SMD are not meant for everybody...and I am sure, that some of you try these wonderful discs, you might get in love with them as Kedar and me are.

I just want to wish to all of you, the happiness, the joy, the feelings, the splendid, the magic, the marvellous, the pleasure that I get through my system, with or without the SMDs. And our ears are the only truth. Trust in them. Many of you had read Mr. Vans Evers. He is a dedicated wood adds to any musical instruments to increase the harmonic texture of it. It does not change the characteristic timbre of the instrument...what it does is enhance it. Some might like this, and other do not. If someone of you would like to read an article that he wrote some time ago regarding the wood and what it could do in your system, you can PM me or send me an email [email protected] and I will remit to you it.

Again, and I know that I am boring you with my comparisons. Sound systems are like cars...and you know the market for the cars...we are in the sports cars, where we can get a lot of gadgets for them. Different tires, different wheels, different gasoline, different brakes, turbos, you name it...and some might think that there are gadgets that do not meet their needs...and again, it is a matter of liking.

 

[InterMechanico]

That is very well put, Roberto. I'm eventually going to try these things for myself, because they may be right (or wrong) for my ears. Thank you Justin, for your honesty and unbiased opinion.

 

[beanbag]

a) I don't quite get it what higher tension has got to do with drive voltage. Care to explain? (Are you referring to sensitivity? Then please explain relation between tension, voltage and sensitivity)
b) You obviously want to learn about ESL, instead of wild and erroneous speculation, why don't you just ask about things you don't understand? (There are plenty of people who build their own ESL and many articles available - giving made up explanations might give false information to persons inexperienced with ESL or less knowledgeable technically)

a) the higher diaphragm tension means that it is harder to deflect out of plane. So more voltage is needed to make it move the same amount. Beyond that, I don't know specifically the relations between those things you mentioned, so you will have to look elsewhere for your answer.

b) It's not "wild and erroneous", it is "careful and considered", LOL. An initial claim with some adjustments and qualifications added along the way. Which part is wild or wrong anyway? You know what is "wild and erroneous"? It's like when somebody says that ML is going to update the Summit X any minute now, so then other people stop buying them, and then a ML employee has to come on this forum to do damage control.

I already asked a tension question a long time ago, wondering why it was so low:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?15348-My-panels-lost-tension-I-think

I don't have any questions for others regarding this because I am figuring it out by myself, but if anybody else had a contribution or correction, then maybe I would.

 

[InterMechanico]

a) the higher diaphragm tension means that it is harder to deflect out of plane. So more voltage is needed to make it move the same amount. Beyond that, I don't know specifically the relations between those things you mentioned, so you will have to look elsewhere for your answer.

b) It's not "wild and erroneous", it is "careful and considered", LOL. An initial claim with some adjustments and qualifications added along the way. Which part is wild or wrong anyway? You know what is "wild and erroneous"? It's like when somebody says that ML is going to update the Summit X any minute now, so then other people stop buying them, and then a ML employee has to come on this forum to do damage control.

I already asked a tension question a long time ago, wondering why it was so low:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?15348-My-panels-lost-tension-I-think

I don't have any questions for others regarding this because I am figuring it out by myself, but if anybody else had a contribution or correction, then maybe I would.

Did you read my posts?

 

[beanbag]

Lets not be dishonest, now. People got huffy because you gave erroneous information and then refused to accept it. As I posted above, and you keep intentionally ignoring, this whole discussion began because you stated that it shouldn't be any harder to apply Mylar to a larger panel because there is absolutely no horizontal tension applied because it is impossible to put horizontal tension on a curved panel. One look at the video Ken posted of a worker applying Mylar to a panel shows this comment to be patently false. Since then, you have refused to admit you might have misspoken, instead chasing strawmen and carefully backtracking on your original statement. It is this kind of childish behavior that gets people all "huffy."

Edit: to be clear, this discussion was never really about panel tension per se; it was about how difficult it would be to apply the Mylar to a wider panel vs a narrower panel. It is harder applying Mylar by hand to a larger panel because the worker must apply some horizontal tension to the Mylar as they are applying it. All your other comments about ratios of vertical to horizontal tension were just straw-men arguments to try to avoid any admission that your original statement was incorrect.

This is like the lawyer in you speaking, right? Skip over the main point and try to get me on a technicality. Or maybe it is like when they try to attribute motivations and paint images?

So anyway, I never said that horizontal tension was not "applied". I said that there is none in the panel (after it is all put together and functioning). This is all in the first post, except the part in parenthesis which is implied and later expounded upon). I also did not say it is "impossible to put horizontal tension on a curved panel". I said it is impossible for a curved film to have tension in a particular direction [unless...] . Think about the difference between "applied", "put", and what the final result is.
Read this over and over again until you get it, or find a statement I made where I claim they do not "put" it in a tension rig and "apply" tension.

By the second post already, I said that IF (with two capital letter) there is horiz tension, these are what the effects would be, and this thread has me quantifying it more. IF it exists. What you call backtracking, I call "refining the argument" and "allowing for more effects". I even told you how to check if there is any horiz tension at all, i.e. gave you the noose to hang me. Right now, nobody knows if my initial statement is "exactly" right or "mostly right". (I guess I am ok with either...)

So maybe go and check your speakers for tension and inter-spar sag, or figure it out some other way, and maybe then I will admit that "Oh no, I said none, when instead I meant a little bit".

 

[Rich]

You know what is "wild and erroneous"? It's like when somebody says that ML is going to update the Summit X any minute now, so then other people stop buying them, and then a ML employee has to come on this forum to do damage control.

You're right, that statement is wild and erroneous (much like your original statement that it should be no harder to lay Mylar on a Neolith than any other ML speaker). Perhaps you are referring to the thread where some were voicing concerns about a lack of recent updates to the high end part of the line. Peter came onto the thread and said the next wave will be focused on the high end, so we shouldn't despair. Some of us took that to mean a replacement for the Summit X (which is overdue based on ML's past history of updates). Peter then spoke up in a different thread to disabuse us of that specific notion, saying in part:

I have to respond here to an assumption that some have jumped to. In an earlier response to a thread about the goods announced at CES and some disappointments about a lack of high end news, my response was that there where some things coming that might make some happy. I did not say that a new Summit was coming in the months ahead. We are always working on new items at many levels of our now broad product line, with projects always ongoing.

I don't recall any issues with people not buying Summits based on speculation in this thread. I think you just made that up for added drama.

 

[beanbag]

Did you read my posts?

yes I did.