News from Munich High-End, Two New Masterpiece Series Electrostatic Speakers
- Thread starter DevinZ
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User211
Well-known member
The good reason being they can't be any wider than the panel at the front without looking odd. And the new boxy look means the can't be raised at the back to increase internal volume.
Nor can the box be too high to increase volume or the panel will be too.
Yup. I am a genius
Yup. I am a genius
:bowdown:
Thought so.
However, what if they started out flush with the front and were angled out slightly to each side like a thin trapezoid?
They could angle out and then back in again. Frankly there are plenty options to create aesthetically pleasing internal volume space that didn't have the approximate dimensions of a brick.
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User211
Well-known member
The folks at ML: "Dammit, RCHeliGuy just blew our next design concept".
I'd bow down to greater genius but I must admit I did think about what you said.
Equality of genius, obviously.
I'd bow down to greater genius but I must admit I did think about what you said.
Equality of genius, obviously.
amey01
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with a brick. Many of them form the basis of a lot of the world's greatest architecture.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
I believe the Renaissance (and presumably the Expression and Impression), have very slightly rounded cabinet tops. The overall rectangular design is probably easier (i.e. more inexpensive) to construct than something trapezoidal, and easier to fit with the bottom electronics tray. I agree the cabinets appear somewhat disproportional in pics, but I'll reserve judgement until I see them in person. WAF is definitely something I need to take into consideration.
The depth of the box could be an issue for those that have limited space - which I think is many. If you look at many of the systems posted the majority are tighter to the front wall then recommended including my two sets - however with treatments some of this can be mitigated. The Renaissance depth is nearly 30" and then ML recommends another 24" added to that from the front wall. For those that have the room great but I bet many of us just do not. In the pictures for the Expression and Impression they look nearly identical in depth I'm thinking maybe 24" ish hopefully less. Because they now all have a rear firing cone getting tighter to the front wall is even more of an issue. I think most of us can live with 2' or 3' total from the wall but when you get to 4' and beyond you need a pretty special room to accommodate. A music room only possibly but a media room with a flat panel on the front wall not real practical at all. I'm not trying to be all negative here as I heard the Renaissance actually twice and it sounded fantastic and I assume the Expression and Impression will also I'm just trying to figure out placement.
On a slightly different subject I know someone looking for a 10k set and this depth thing is of concern. The current versions don't have the rear firing cones and placement although not ideal can be much closer to the front wall. I'm wondering for the older members how does ML handle old models going out pricewise do they discount or not? I'm thinking not but wanted to ask. As the current Montis maybe his better choice.
On a slightly different subject I know someone looking for a 10k set and this depth thing is of concern. The current versions don't have the rear firing cones and placement although not ideal can be much closer to the front wall. I'm wondering for the older members how does ML handle old models going out pricewise do they discount or not? I'm thinking not but wanted to ask. As the current Montis maybe his better choice.
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That is very true.
I have my Ethos pulled out as far into the room as I can manage and the front panels are 32" from the front wall.
In hind sight I probably should have gotten something besides an electrostat for this room, but this is the room that I want to listen to music in. If I put the speakers on a different floor of the house my wife and I would likely not listen to them much.
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True and thus one would be better of with something other than a stat / di-pole
again, true and with that being said no matter what 'treatments' one does you will never get an ideal soundstage (depth). When I had my Spire's the panels were 42" from the wall ........... still a compromise, another two feet would have been much better.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
It's also possible that ML intentionally went with "deeper" cabinets to "encourage" owners to place the speaker farther from the wall, where they sound best.
DevinZ
Member
Hello all! I'm going to jump in here and (hopefully) add some food for thought to this discussion. You’ve noticed in the manual that it recommends 24-inches minimum from the back of the speaker cabinet to the wall. This is an ideal. If you have the space, do it. You won’t be sorry! I realize, however, that the reality of many listening rooms don’t allow for this. That’s why Mr. Vojtko spent so much time addressing bass integration within listening rooms when he engineered these speakers. Multiple features in the new Masterpiece Series speakers help tune the speaker’s bass to your room (and provide flexibility when it comes to placement). ForceForward effectively eliminates the rear traveling bass energy from the speaker which makes the distance from the front wall less critical. As well, the plus or minus 10dB bass knob is there to help address any bass anomalies that might arise due to placement. Additionally, with ARC measurement and correction available for the woofers, getting the bass dialed into your room is easier than ever.
Whereas the current generation (Summit X/Montis/Ethos/Theos) only has one model with dual woofers (Summit X), these new Masterpiece Series speakers feature dual woofers in all models. Each woofer is independently amplified and each is in its own sealed chamber. Opposing woofers, with sealed chambers, and independent control/amplification are necessary to execute the ForceForward bass topology.
On a related note, regarding the depth of the cabinets. One of the most critical components of setting up dipole electrostatics is the distance of the stat panel from the front wall. Somewhere around 5 feet of travel (out of phase back wave travels 2.5 feet to the wall, bounces, and 2.5 feet back to where it started= 5 feet) is where the magic really starts to happen with regards to the three dimensional sound staging. The depth of the cabinets helps assure that this critical distance is addressed.
DevinZ
Member
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
No I get all that with all the bass improvements in particular will be controlled better to handle less then ideal conditions. I'm very familiar in that I have 2-212's however I was looking for comments on just how close they could get to the front wall and still work. If the boxes are 24" deep I'm thinking that you probably need an additional foot so a total of 3' from wall or do you think you can get closer? I know this will be almost impossible to answer but someone may have a comment.
Also no one has commented on pricing of out going product does ML discount them or not?
Also no one has commented on pricing of out going product does ML discount them or not?
DevinZ
Member
There's no hard and fast rule. As a starting point and to give the ForceForward configuration room to work, what we recommend is to try keeping the back of the cabinet, at minimum, a distance from the wall that is equal to or greater than the woofer size:
Renaissance ESL 15A = 12-inches
Expression ESL 13A = 10-inches
Impression ESL 11A = 8-inches
There's an old adage that Mr. Sanders taught me early in my career at MartinLogan. "Trust your ears." Move the speakers and listen, rinse, repeat...until you find the formula that works for your listening space and your personal preferences.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Devin, can you share the actual cabinet dimensions for the Expression and Impression models?
Also, will ML have downloadable BF 210/212 filters for matching those subs with the new Masterpiece models?
Also, will ML have downloadable BF 210/212 filters for matching those subs with the new Masterpiece models?
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DevinZ
Member
(H x W x D - entire speaker)
Renaissance ESL 15A: 69.8 x 15.75 x 28.9 inches
Expression ESL 13A: 61.5 x 13.4 x 27.5 inches
Impression ESL 11A: 60.75 x 11.9 x 27.4 inches
DevinZ
Member
Definitely. MartinLogan will offer BalancedForce 212 and 210 custom filters for the new Masterpiece Series speakers. Mr. Vojtko is working on these presently.
Kabookiep
Member
So historically what does Martin Logan do with legacy products during a new product release?
Cayman
Active member
Devin,
Thank you very much for joining in to share first hand information with us.
Could you please tell us what the fate of CLX is going to be?
It is also being replaced?
Thank you very much for joining in to share first hand information with us.
Could you please tell us what the fate of CLX is going to be?
It is also being replaced?
DevinZ
Member
Cayman-
I understand your curiosity about MartinLogan's long term product road map. Unfortunately, I am not able to answer questions unless they are about a current product or one that has been announced through an official press release.
Regards,
Devin
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