New Theories

[TTC]

Hello
A letter coming from Sweden. I am a jazz musician and have played a lot in different jazz clubs etc.
I love the music of Chick Corea, Miles etc. Over the years I have often visit jazz clubs and listen to my favorites. I have bought a lot of CD and Vinyl records (preferable) of these performers. What I vill say is that I easily can compare the sound from clubs with my own Stereo system. My system is no State of the Art, but I have the ML Summit which I think is tremendous good. I often go to Stereo shops for listening to different speakers. I did compare vocal sound and cymbal sounds with some speakers, for example The Focal Utopia La Scala with the beryllium speaker and the Tannoy Westminster. I got supriced over the results. The sound of the vocal and the cymbal was not good. It was too much treble especially with the Focal (beryllium). It is not a naturally sound. The cymbal sound was very harsh. The vocal sound was not “real” in either of these speakers. Some people admit that this is true. These expensive speakers are often theoretical good speakers with good “measurable values”. I think that the Electrostatic speakers (ML) is the only one that can reproduce (treble) in a naturally way.
I have not heard ex. Wilson or similar high end speakers. But I am surprised of the bad treble sound from some expensive speakers.

My gear: ML Summit, Krell Kav 400i, Meridian CD G6, Clearaudio Performance Vinyl with Dynavector D3 and Dynavector Phono amp. Most of these have got a “price” in TAS, which I often read.

I would like to upgrade. What do think is possible and priceworth. I saw the new Audio Research DS 200. It cost $ 6000, same as NAD M2. In Sweden NAD M2 cost $ 6000 but the ARC 200 costs $ 10.000.
The NAD M2 got a price in TAS; “best choice”.
I like American made amps. Is it worth to buy Pass, Conrad Johnson amps to my Summit?

Regards
/Tommy

 

[Bernard]

I like American made amps. Is it worth to buy Pass, Conrad Johnson amps to my Summit?

Regards
/Tommy

Tommy, welcome to the forum. You should post your system in the Members Systems section.

To answers your question above, this is largely an American-centric forum, so the guys here will definitely tell you to buy American, and support the American economy ! Just kidding guys! I do own ARC and VPI and Cardas.

Pass and Conrad-Johnson are definitely worth buying, after trial at home if possible.

 

[slowGEEZR]

Regarding the sound quality you heard from those Focal and others...how were they set up? Was the room treated? It's possible to take really good speakers and have them sound terrible in the wrong acoustic space.

 

[TTC]

Regarding the sound quality you heard from those Focal and others...how were they set up? Was the room treated? It's possible to take really good speakers and have them sound terrible in the wrong acoustic space.

Hey
Thanks for your answer.
The showroom I have listened in is one of the best in Europe.
Large and right damped.
They often use MBL 9022 power amps together with MBL 6010 preamp
sometimes they use Dartzeel amps. I have also listen to the large Focal Grande Utopia and I´m sad to say that the treble is not authentic even there.
They recommend me to buy the MBL 7008 which is a integrated amp. I think MBL and other German amps are to static. They have a "cold" and very clean sound.
/Tommy

 

[slowGEEZR]

I've also heard the Grand Utopia and thought it was an incredible speaker. No problem at all with the high frequencies that I could detect. Perhaps the media used was not up to par? I've heard the YG Acoustics top of the line speaker and in one location it sounded absolutely horrible. Yet, I would not dismiss that speaker due to that one listening session. Others, who know good sound when they hear it, heard the same speakers sounding absolutely wonderful. There are many factors, as you know, that go into making good sound. I guess my point is that I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss those speakers due to that listening session.

 

[Stefan]

Hej TTC,

Nice to see another swede in the forum.
Have you considered tubes?
I just got me a pair of PrimaLuna Dialogue 7 and I can assure that they are not cold, on the contrary they really play music. Now there is a new distributor in Sweden who seems to do a really good job.


btw, they place you are mentioning, is it by any chance a store which name begins with an A?

 

[TTC]

I've also heard the Grand Utopia and thought it was an incredible speaker. No problem at all with the high frequencies that I could detect. Perhaps the media used was not up to par? I've heard the YG Acoustics top of the line speaker and in one location it sounded absolutely horrible. Yet, I would not dismiss that speaker due to that one listening session. Others, who know good sound when they hear it, heard the same speakers sounding absolutely wonderful. There are many factors, as you know, that go into making good sound. I guess my point is that I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss those speakers due to that listening session.

Hey Steve
Thanks for your answer.
I have been listening to many different speakers/systems for manyl years.
I bought my first system 1976; AR LST and ARC SP3/Marantz 500.
Since then I have been following the Hifi evolution.

When the beryllium speakers came along, I was dissapointed when I listening to them for the first time.
I have some friends, who agree with me. When I bought my Summit´s, a couple of years ago, its was like a relief. For the first time I could recognize the treble sound, from the real life (jazzclubs).I have some live records from conserts, I have joined. I have theese record with me(of course) when I listening in different Hifi Showrooms.
I think that the speaker producers are putting to much effort in getting new technics and good theoretic values, instead of getting real HiFi sound; "a mirror of reality".
/Tommy

 

[TTC]

Hej TTC,

Nice to see another swede in the forum.
Have you considered tubes?
I just got me a pair of PrimaLuna Dialogue 7 and I can assure that they are not cold, on the contrary they really play music. Now there is a new distributor in Sweden who seems to do a really good job.


btw, they place you are mentioning, is it by any chance a store which name begins with an A?

Hey
You are right. One of these places begins with an A. I bought my Clearaudio Performande there. They are very friendly and knows a lot of high end hifi also.
/Tommy

 

[roberto]

!

Hey Steve
Thanks for your answer.
I have been listening to many different speakers/systems for manyl years.
I bought my first system 1976; AR LST and ARC SP3/Marantz 500.
Since then I have been following the Hifi evolution.

When the beryllium speakers came along, I was dissapointed when I listening to them for the first time.
I have some friends, who agree with me. When I bought my Summit´s, a couple of years ago, its was like a relief. For the first time I could recognize the treble sound, from the real life (jazzclubs).I have some live records from conserts, I have joined. I have theese record with me(of course) when I listening in different Hifi Showrooms.
I think that the speaker producers are putting to much effort in getting new technics and good theoretic values, instead of getting real HiFi sound; "a mirror of reality".
/Tommy

Hola...I am going to chime something here. I think that when you are a musician, and used to listen live music and also being next to the drummer, and listen the cymbals so close, you get used to that particular sound. I do not like any tweeter too. To my ears, they are too bright!... and no matter the kind of electronics you use or cables... you can make the tweeters to change in level, but not in color. You are also listening a crossover, coherence is the right word for that, We with ML, we do not have a tweeter crossover and we can distinguish very easy if the drummer is using wooden tips or plastic tips at the cymbals. The harmonic texture of these you can listen at the record Steve Daves, Abum: Quality of Sound track No. 2. Try this recording (one of my reference) and you can listen of what I am talking about. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Jimna]

I would like to thank Roberto for his unbiased straight forward posts that are usually very well reinforced with facts and experience! He is a prolific poster who always has something useful to add to the conversation, and I've been reading his posts with reward since I first came to this site.....not that Joe or Jeff's systems don't inspire as well, but they generally feed my sinister-self which is discouraged by the surgeon general! Beware, Joe's commentary is bad for your checkbook, almost as much as bad as ToneAudio issues!....reader beware!


Thank You Roberto!!

 

[TTC]

Hola...I am going to chime something here. I think that when you are a musician, and used to listen live music and also being next to the drummer, and listen the cymbals so close, you get used to that particular sound. I do not like any tweeter too. To my ears, they are too bright!... and no matter the kind of electronics you use or cables... you can make the tweeters to change in level, but not in color. You are also listening a crossover, coherence is the right word for that, We with ML, we do not have a tweeter crossover and we can distinguish very easy if the drummer is using wooden tips or plastic tips at the cymbals. The harmonic texture of these you can listen at the record Steve Daves, Abum: Quality of Sound track No. 2. Try this recording (one of my reference) and you can listen of what I am talking about. Happy listening,
Roberto.

Hi Roberto
Thanks for a very interesting answer. Which ML/Amp etc. do you got. You now know about my problems. Can you suggest a nice uppgrading, for my Summit´s.
Regards,
Tommy

 

[roberto]

Hi Roberto
Thanks for a very interesting answer. Which ML/Amp etc. do you got. You now know about my problems. Can you suggest a nice uppgrading, for my Summit´s.
Regards,
Tommy

thanks for your kind words guys...I think everything is just matter of liking. Some guys like bright sound, other don't. Me, as an example, I am a tube guy. I like the sound of tubes. I use with my CLSIIz an Audio Research VT-100MKII and I do like very much what I listen. Previous I have a Sonic Frontiers Power 2. It has being modified, with better caps and resistors, and the noise floor is very good. I do not use balanced cables...I like Conrad Johnson theory regarding this... single ended is what my ears like. Of course I had tried balanced and perhaps I am going to be nailed here, but again, it is my liking. Also, I use shun mook Mping discs and have all my wooden guitars at one side of my listening room, (which it is very small, my CLSs are like having them as earphones) all are tuned at 440Hz for A musical note. When the energy of the music played through my system, makes them to sing... and this are very nice, because I have natural harmonics singing with my music. Yes I know...I am crazy!... happy listening,
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.

 

[slowGEEZR]

Hola...I am going to chime something here. I think that when you are a musician, and used to listen live music and also being next to the drummer, and listen the cymbals so close, you get used to that particular sound. I do not like any tweeter too. To my ears, they are too bright!... and no matter the kind of electronics you use or cables... you can make the tweeters to change in level, but not in color. You are also listening a crossover, coherence is the right word for that, We with ML, we do not have a tweeter crossover and we can distinguish very easy if the drummer is using wooden tips or plastic tips at the cymbals. The harmonic texture of these you can listen at the record Steve Daves, Abum: Quality of Sound track No. 2. Try this recording (one of my reference) and you can listen of what I am talking about. Happy listening,
Roberto.

Roberto, this is an interesting discussion, to me anyway. Thanks for jumping in. I agree that Martin Logans sound terrific, that's why I have a pair! They have a very real to the source sound that I love. For the money, I don't think they can be beat. I do think that some other speakers sound great and just as true to the source; albeit at a higher cost. I recently listened to the Wilson Maxx 3s and was completely enthralled with their sound. Of course, they're only $68,500! Their ability to sound true to the source was uncanny. I couldn't imagine that anyone would say their tweeters sound too bright, all I heard was naturalness. I suppose that if one were to put an ear right up next to its tweeter the sound would be bright, but that's not how we listen to a speaker. I guess that being in a band gives you a different perspective on the sound of a cymbal, especially if you were right beside it! I only know that I listen to live music weekly and know what a cymbal sounds like from an audience member's perspective. But hey, that's what makes this hobby so great, that we all hear differently and there are many paths to go down.

 

[roberto]

Roberto, this is an interesting discussion, to me anyway. Thanks for jumping in. I agree that Martin Logans sound terrific, that's why I have a pair! They have a very real to the source sound that I love. For the money, I don't think they can be beat. I do think that some other speakers sound great and just as true to the source; albeit at a higher cost. I recently listened to the Wilson Maxx 3s and was completely enthralled with their sound. Of course, they're only $68,500! Their ability to sound true to the source was uncanny. I couldn't imagine that anyone would say their tweeters sound too bright, all I heard was naturalness. I suppose that if one were to put an ear right up next to its tweeter the sound would be bright, but that's not how we listen to a speaker. I guess that being in a band gives you a different perspective on the sound of a cymbal, especially if you were right beside it! I only know that I listen to live music weekly and know what a cymbal sounds like from an audience member's perspective. But hey, that's what makes this hobby so great, that we all hear differently and there are many paths to go down.

Hola Steve. Please do not get me wrong here. As I said before, it is my liking! not necessary yours. I can not stand any tweeter regardless of price. If you get close to any brand, and you listen the tweeter, let's say about one inch of distance from our ear, you will hear it not clear and distorted. You can place your ears touching the stat panel of any ML and you will listen crystal clear!. On the other hand, I was wondering why the 11 judges, voted to best sound at the Munich show, the CLX as the best sound at the show. This is the first time that all judges were unanimous. Again, and with all respect, this is coherence. Remember this: ML diaphragm is so light that weights less than the air that it moves!!!... it will move as fast as the signal is, and will stop moving immediately because it does not have inertia. Can you say the same thing from any tweeter? The diaphragm is playing mids and highs all over the entire surface of the stat panel, not just a single one inch diameter for highs... the sound is due to a change of pressure at the air, more area, means more air moving... please understand that again, this is my liking, and I do trust my ears, regardless of price and specs. Have you notice how easy is to understand the left hand of a piano player with ML? There are no mess with dynamics, the right amount, and this is what I do like from ML. Of course, ML is not perfect, but the minor flaws against the dynamic speakers that plays louder in some frequencies, that do not belong to the musical instruments, is what I do not like. As you might recall, I studied 14 years classical guitar, and when was 18 years had my rock band of course. That is why, of course, I use the guitar as a reference to test any system. Of course out there are great dynamic or planar speakers and some are so expensive, that as you said, with many thousand dollars less you can have a great sound. Have you notice how easy is to tell the musicians that are playing with your main artist? The soul of the musician(s) is there, in your living or dedicated room for you! Ease with ML to do this task!, I wish that I could explain myself better, but I have a very limited English. Please excuse my dare! Happy listening to all,
Roberto.