New Motif Center Channel

[akm3]

Allen,

Home theater experts will tell you that IDENTICAL speakers across the front stage (at least if you are running three speakers up there vs. 5 across the front as in a 9.X system) then your absolute best practice (for HT anyway) would be to run three of the same thing! Voicing will match perfectly.

I agree with this advice generally, but it gets a bit odd with Martin Logan centers which are odd speakers =D If they were all horizontal it would work. but the array in the picture (to me) seems like an awful idea. They would not sound like they were identically voiced

 

[Craig]

Allen,

Home theater experts will tell you that IDENTICAL speakers across the front stage (at least if you are running three speakers up there vs. 5 across the front as in a 9.X system) then your absolute best practice (for HT anyway) would be to run three of the same thing! Voicing will match perfectly.

A very interesting marketing photo. However, most marketing photos are designed for looks but the rooms they use in these marketing photos obviuosly have bad acoustic principles and in reality would suck for audio performance. I.E. improper speaker positioning. Lots of glass in the room, no acoustic treatments, hard floors, no carpeting at all, with hard walls, minimal furniture, etc. Take a look at most audio equipment photo ads and you'll often see a recipe for a very bright room. And you will never see wires of any sort as if everything is wireless.

While that is true in theory and in practice you have to consider the dispersion characteristics of ESLs. ML designs these speakers with a curve to improve horizontal dispersion. The Center was designed to for horizontal dispersion in its normal horizontal position. When you turn it vertically that dispersion also goes vertical, correct? To use these three for your front three then they should all be mounted horizontally. But then I have never tried using three center channel speakers like this. I would think the sweet spot would shrink drastically. Maybe it works, I don't know, haven't actually tried it.

If looks are more important than performance then why not just buy Blose or hide the speakers in the wall? Personally I like the looks of big ESLs in a living or family room. I'm lucky that my wife is very accepting but that just makes her that much more accepting (an understatement) to me.

Over the last few years we've been designing our living and family room around the MLs and Audio/HT systems to include acoustic treatments. Not the other way around. In fact I think the rooms are looking and sounding pretty good. We're very happy with the progress but its still a work in progress.

I really need to get a good digital camera so I can post new photos.

 

[JonFo]

I'm going to try to steal ML's bandwidth with a picture, but with the way they have them mounted, wouldn't it sound HORRIBLE?! You have the center channel with the 30 degree arc horizontally, and the left and right channels with the arc vertically. Wouldn't left and right Martin Logans with Vertical CLS arcs mean that there is NO left and right dispersion? Wouldn't this mean that no seat could possibly be a sweet spot?

Why is it being marketed as anything but a center channel in the first place?

Help me out experts.

-Allen

OMG!

This is soooo wrong, I hardly know where to start. Bad, Bad layout. :stop:

Devin, if you are reading, this, please take that pic down pronto. It makes ML look clueless about acoustics. And since you are the ‘Loudspeaker company’, showing you understand a bit about how speakers interact in a room is fundamental to your credibility.

The Motif in the center is actually OK, as that’s where it’s designed to go, but here’s why the left / right usage of a Motif is wrong, just plain wrong:

In that position, the vertical dispersion is going to hit and reflect off the ceiling and flooor, not a good thing. Matter of fact, ML has spent the last few decades bragging about how the ESL designs did not reflect of ceilings and floors, and why that’s a good thing.
So why do the opposite now?

The image will be smeared by the ceiling and floor bounces. Not good.

The horizontal dispersion is laughable in this configuration. I mean, a 10” wide flat panel has no horizontal dispersion when mounted like this. This is why ML ESL panels have their patented 30 degree horizontal curve, to disperse evenly in that plane.

So it will have mid-bass (the cone drivers are broader dispersion than the ESL) no mid’s and weak highs up to 3,500Hz, where a dynamic tweeter will again improve a bit due to its broader dispersion.

Basically, it will Suck, sounding both boomy and shrill at the same time.

 

[JonFo]

I, too, was VERY surprised to see this photo on their website. It looks like a fine CENTER channel, but who the heck wants THREE of 'em in that configuration?? If this is ML's new tack in hoping to woo the female market, fuggeddaboutit! That configuration merits a -5 in WAF!

Not only low WAF, it will actually sound really bad. Why would ML ruin their reputation recommending silly configurations like this?

If wanting something sleek (and I support that goal, even though I'm not the target market), then why not use a pair of Scripts as the L/R? That would both look better and sound a whole lot better.

I'm thinking they still need to develop an ESL based on-wall, where they damp the rear wave in a box or wall cavity. To get them flat enough to 'fit' into a pic like the one above, they will need new designs. But that’s another thread.

I’m still gagging, breakfast will have to wait….

 

[twich54]

Jonathan, I agree 110% !!! One look at that picture, combined with the knowledge of a new man at the "Helm" of the M/L ship makes me think this company may be headed south !! Even Shirley when looking at the pic said, " OMG, that looks like crap" ! I think my ears are bleeding just looking at it myself !

I sure as hell hope that wasn't the idea of one of our members when we were asked to draw / render our "Dream System" while on tour at the factory !!!

 

[JONERVI]

A very interesting marketing photo. However, most marketing photos are designed for looks but the rooms they use in these marketing photos obviuosly have bad acoustic principles and in reality would suck for audio performance. I.E. improper speaker positioning. Lots of glass in the room, no acoustic treatments, hard floors, no carpeting at all, with hard walls, minimal furniture, etc. Take a look at most audio equipment photo ads and you'll often see a recipe for a very bright room. And you will never see wires of any sort as if everything is wireless.

Wow...............prior to reading this post I was prepared to give this exact input (scarry indeed).......It has everything to do with marketing and not much to do with real world applications......... those of us in the know....know better

 

[bober]

I really think you guys are jumping the gun and not giving this speaker a chance. Have you heard it? I haven't. But I can't say if it sounds good or bad without hearing it in that configuration first. What we "know" (or what we think we know) leads us to believe this would sound horrible. The description on the ML website says "the worlds most versatile on wall electrostatic speaker." Who knows, maybe it sounds good?

I've seen those pictures of the ML Listening room with pairs of scripts upside down and right side up one on top of the other, they do crazy things in that room. It would be amazing if they made this setup actually work where the horizontal dispersion was good even though they are mounted vertically. We'll see how it sounds when people start buying it.

 

[Audiophiliac]

Ok....does anyone think they will make an active center channel to go with the new Purity? It would be the most logical thing to do IMHO.

 

[JonFo]

I really think you guys are jumping the gun and not giving this speaker a chance. Have you heard it? I haven't. But I can't say if it sounds good or bad without hearing it in that configuration first. What we "know" (or what we think we know) leads us to believe this would sound horrible. The description on the ML website says "the worlds most versatile on wall electrostatic speaker." Who knows, maybe it sounds good?

I personally saw (but did not hear) the Motif during the ML factory tour, so I know the physical configuration pretty well. It’s also well documented on their site for others to see now that it’s released.

I stand by my statements that the use of it for left and right (vertical mount) will sound horrible. It will not throw a consistent image across the frequency spectrum in that configuration.
I’ve personally played around with many ESL panel configs and done lot’s of dispersion measurements with my calibrated mic and ETF measurement software. Trust me, off-axis dispersion for the flat portion of the center ESL is nill.
The ceiling and floor bounce induced by allowing the curved section to engage more room modes and add delayed reverberation from those angles is likewise a problem.

The Motif was specifically designed as a horizontally deployed CENTER channel speaker. If designing a vertical mount L/R driver, one would NEVER design it like that.

I've seen those pictures of the ML Listening room with pairs of scripts upside down and right side up one on top of the other, they do crazy things in that room. It would be amazing if they made this setup actually work where the horizontal dispersion was good even though they are mounted vertically. We'll see how it sounds when people start buying it.

Hanging speakers upside down is legit, as long as the dispersion characteristics of the ESL are respected.
The problem with the Motif’s in that picture is that the fundamental laws of acoustics and physics dictate they will sound bad, really bad, in that config.

I pitty the poor uninformed high-roller that pays $2K apiece for these and sticks them on the wall as shown. Any decent dynamic on-wall will blow it away in imaging, smoothness and balance.

ML needs to get cracking on the correct L/R ESL companions for scenarios (hum, term sounds familiar ) like this.

 

[bober]

I believe you JonFo, and its interesting to hear that you've actually heard it. I haven't, as haven't other members of the forum, was just saying don't make up your mind if you've never heard it before.

And yes, a powered center is the obvious way to go, but will it happen? hmm

 

[sleepysurf]

Anybody audition or buy a Motif yet? My local Sound Advice/Tweeter STILL doesn't have one on display. I'm in the midst of totally reconfiguring my A/V setup, and plan on getting the Motif. However, I can't wall-mount my 52" Sony XBR4 until I determine how much clearance I need for the Motif (7.5" vs. 10"), depending on whether I use the feet or adjustable stand. (I'm counting on the Motif to "hide" the wires running to the XBR4 so I can avoid cutting holes in my wall). I hate to buy one sight unseen/unheard, but can't wait much longer.

 

[JonFo]

Alan, I haven’t seen it in the wild yet either.

As for hiding wires, just get some surface raceway channels and glue (or Velcro) them to the wall over the wires, then paint them same color as the wall.

 

[sleepysurf]

As for hiding wires, just get some surface raceway channels and glue (or Velcro) them to the wall over the wires, then paint them same color as the wall.

Using a wire cover is definitely an option, but I'm not thrilled about the idea of enclosing the power cord, and DON'T want to pay an electrician to relocate an outlet higher on the wall. If need be, I have my eyes on this particular cover...
http://www.superbhometheater.com/ws_brochure.html

 

[mapmustang]

Sleepy, I've had my Motif for a few weeks now and I've been very happy with it. I have it wall mounted under my 52" Sharp. I watched The Chronicles of Riddick the other night and it sounded terrific. Very live sound with Vin Diesel's deep voice and really helped bring the movie to life aside from the booms and special effects. If you are planning on wall mounting it, beware that there is absolutely no room behind the speaker when mounted, so you have to run the wires inside the wall unless you can make a mounting surface that comes off the wall far enough to get your cables in there.

 

[Joey_V]

Help me out experts.

-Allen

That configuration will not work as positioned, these are to be horizontally mounted.

 

[attyonline]

How about more posts about experience from members with this center speaker and less carping about ML's marketing photos?

 

[Steveiz]

How about more posts about experience from members with this center speaker and less carping about ML's marketing photos?

Amen!!! Please some responses to actual listening in your rooms. Thanks!

 

[sleepysurf]

I'm surprised by the general lack of reviews/feedback of the Motif, not only here, but elsewhere on the net. Is mapmustang the only one here who's actually gotten one?

 

[ctbarker32]

Motif up and running here in Kensington

I'm surprised by the general lack of reviews/feedback of the Motif, not only here, but elsewhere on the net. Is mapmustang the only one here who's actually gotten one?

Nope, I've got one here in Kensington, MD. Traded in my Cinema at SoundWorks about a month ago.

I primarily wanted the Motif to match my existing Vantages that I bought a year ago. I just wanted to have the latest ML industrial design all matching up front. The Motif is quite a bit smaller than the Cinema. I don't think this results in a loss in sound quality in any way. I really dig the look of the speaker.

Sound wise (after about a month of operation), I believe it is a great complement to my hybrid home theater/2 channel system. I definitely think the Motif is a bit crisper when compared to the cinema. I also think the sound dispersion is much more even. I think this might be due to the new convex curve of the ESL as opposed the cinema's concave design. Of course the conventional tweeter is no doubt new and improved as well.

One small nit is the way the speaker terminals are recessed. While in theory one can use either bananas or spades, because of the recession, the large thick spades I was using were never going to get a firm solid contact. I switched over to some quality bananas and had a much better hookup. I suspect this design is in deference to the ability to mount this speaker on a wall.

Obviously, the center channel gets most of it use on TV and Movies. I'm building up a small collection of HD-DVDs and recent titles such as 300 and Transformers with their HD Plus soundtracks were sufficiently ear rattling while retaining clarity for the major dialog through the Motif. I've got some concert HD-DVDs (Metheny's The Way Up) I haven't auditioned yet that would also be a good test. I've also got some new SACDs in (LAGQ Brazil) that I will have to sit down and listen to shortly.

I really do believe that the sound field across the left/center/right front is now very even and seamless with the addition of the Motif.

-CB

 

[attyonline]

Thanks for some real world experience with the Motif. I am interested in a more in-depth comparison with the Cimema, which I have owned for six years. I am unsure if this is a latteral move or an upgrade. My room is 18 x 13, which is on the small side, which makes me wonder if the Stage/Theater is too much for the room. I have always felt that the ML centers were a significant compromise over the quality of the main speakers they sell, and I have felt the price was too high for the electrostat models. The Stage is likely out of my price range but I may save up and get a used one in the future if the improvement over my Cinema is real and substantial, in my estimate.