New Member Wash DC Metro Area

[Rascal]

Hello! My name is Allen Goldberg and I live in the Washington DC Metro Area. I'm a new member to this forum, but I've owned and enjoyed a Martin Logan setup since 2016. I'm a retired research engineer with extensive experience in electronics and signal processing. My wife is a concert pianist. The Martin Logan system is one of several systems (not ML) that I own and enjoy in my home.

I own a pair of Martin Logan Montis speakers and two ML subwoofers, a Balanced Force 210 and a Dynamo 1100X. All of these are used for both music listening in stereo and movie viewing with surround sound in my home theater setup which I will now describe.

Before I do this, I would mention that I've experimented with many combinations of components to drive the Montis speakers, and I'd be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. Among the amps I've used in the past are a pair of McIntosh MC60s (PP 6550s), a Marantz 8B (PP EL84s) and an Adcom GFA-555 (Nelson Pass design) modified with improved power supply bypassing. All are good, but not as remarkable as what I currently use.

To begin, the Montis pair have their own dedicated DAC/preamp and power amp combination: a Benchmark DAC3 HGC and a Benchmark AHB2. These are connected together via balanced XLR cables made by Benchmark. When listening to music in stereo, these components, plus the sources, are the only ones involved. The results are superb. The AHB2 is especially good at producing prodigious amounts of low distortion drive for the Montis speakers, which as you surely know are capacitive and not the easiest load to drive, especially in the treble range. The sound is utterly neutral and seamless up and down the entire sound spectrum. The power output of the single stereo AHB2 is plenty to drive the Montis pair, even in this large room.

The Montis pair is positioned at the end of a very long room (my combined family room and kitchen). The main listening seating is around 14 feet away from this far-end wall. I'll have more to say about this wall in a moment when I discuss the home theater. Behind each Montis speaker is a 2 ft wide by 6 ft tall sound absorbing panel to absorb some of the back wave. This significantly reduces a mid-range room resonance and improves the spacial imaging.

When used as part of a home theater, the DAC3 is put into a home theater bypass mode. The DAC3 is used as an analog front end to the AHB2 which continues to power the Montis pair.

The center of the home theater is a Denon AVR-X3600H A/V receiver. The L and R front preamp outputs drive the DAC3 analog inputs. The two ML subwoofers are driven by the Denon sub outputs. The Denon also drives the center channel speaker, a Dynaudio Contour T 2.1, and a pair of Def Tech surround speakers mounted in the ceiling just rear of the sofa seating. The Dynaudio center is well matched in balance to the two Montis speakers that flank it on either side. Above the center channel and between the Montis is a 100 inch pull-down viewing screeen. The projector is Panasonic.

The ML subwoofers are located as a result of extensive measurements and experimentation. One sub, the Balanced Force 210, is located in the right hand corner of the room. The other, the Dynamo, is located immediately behind the sofa which faces the viewing screen. This second sub greatly improves the coverage and delivery of the deep base at all seating locations. The subs only play a role in home theater operation. They are not used for stereo music listening. The bass extension of the Montis bass speakers is more than adequate -- the subs aren't necessary.

The Montis and Dynaudio speaker cables are Canare Star Quads made by Benchmark and Blue Jeans, respectively.

Attached is a phono of the Montis speakers, a pair of KEF 105.1's, the Dynaudio center, the DAC3 and AHB2 and a BlueSound Node during one of many tests. The equipment rack is to the right of the fireplace. The plasma display is covered by the home theater screen when it is pulled down from the ceiling.

 

[JLasher22443]

Welcome to the forum from another member in the DMV.

 

[Rascal]

Thank you, Jason!

I would also mention that, early on, I tried driving the Montis pair with first a Marantz and then the Denon A/V receiver, but that didn't come close to the satisfying results I get from the Benchmark gear and the arrangement described above.

So I have a burning Martin Logan question:

Is "Montis" singular or plural? If it's singular, then what is the plural?

 

[JLasher22443]

LOL at the Montis joke. Yah I'm sure it sounds amazing. I had the McIntosh MC452 pushing my Montis before getting the 15A's. They really sang with that amp.

 

[Len44]

Welcome, Rascal. Looks like a really nice setup you've got there.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this Forum -- lots of knowledgable folks hedvicere, and I've found it a great place to pick up solid advice. Enjoy!

 

[Leporello]

Hello! My name is Allen Goldberg and I live in the Washington DC Metro Area. I'm a new member to this forum, but I've owned and enjoyed a Martin Logan setup since 2016. I'm a retired research engineer with extensive experience in electronics and signal processing. My wife is a concert pianist. The Martin Logan system is one of several systems (not ML) that I own and enjoy in my home.

I own a pair of Martin Logan Montis speakers and two ML subwoofers, a Balanced Force 210 and a Dynamo 1100X. All of these are used for both music listening in stereo and movie viewing with surround sound in my home theater setup which I will now describe.

Before I do this, I would mention that I've experimented with many combinations of components to drive the Montis speakers, and I'd be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. Among the amps I've used in the past are a pair of McIntosh MC60s (PP 6550s), a Marantz 8B (PP EL84s) and an Adcom GFA-555 (Nelson Pass design) modified with improved power supply bypassing. All are good, but not as remarkable as what I currently use.

To begin, the Montis pair have their own dedicated DAC/preamp and power amp combination: a Benchmark DAC3 HGC and a Benchmark AHB2. These are connected together via balanced XLR cables made by Benchmark. When listening to music in stereo, these components, plus the sources, are the only ones involved. The results are superb. The AHB2 is especially good at producing prodigious amounts of low distortion drive for the Montis speakers, which as you surely know are capacitive and not the easiest load to drive, especially in the treble range. The sound is utterly neutral and seamless up and down the entire sound spectrum. The power output of the single stereo AHB2 is plenty to drive the Montis pair, even in this large room.

The Montis pair is positioned at the end of a very long room (my combined family room and kitchen). The main listening seating is around 14 feet away from this far-end wall. I'll have more to say about this wall in a moment when I discuss the home theater. Behind each Montis speaker is a 2 ft wide by 6 ft tall sound absorbing panel to absorb some of the back wave. This significantly reduces a mid-range room resonance and improves the spacial imaging.

When used as part of a home theater, the DAC3 is put into a home theater bypass mode. The DAC3 is used as an analog front end to the AHB2 which continues to power the Montis pair.

The center of the home theater is a Denon AVR-X3600H A/V receiver. The L and R front preamp outputs drive the DAC3 analog inputs. The two ML subwoofers are driven by the Denon sub outputs. The Denon also drives the center channel speaker, a Dynaudio Contour T 2.1, and a pair of Def Tech surround speakers mounted in the ceiling just rear of the sofa seating. The Dynaudio center is well matched in balance to the two Montis speakers that flank it on either side. Above the center channel and between the Montis is a 100 inch pull-down viewing screeen. The projector is Panasonic.

The ML subwoofers are located as a result of extensive measurements and experimentation. One sub, the Balanced Force 210, is located in the right hand corner of the room. The other, the Dynamo, is located immediately behind the sofa which faces the viewing screen. This second sub greatly improves the coverage and delivery of the deep base at all seating locations. The subs only play a role in home theater operation. They are not used for stereo music listening. The bass extension of the Montis bass speakers is more than adequate -- the subs aren't necessary.

The Montis and Dynaudio speaker cables are Canare Star Quads made by Benchmark and Blue Jeans, respectively.

Attached is a phono of the Montis speakers, a pair of KEF 105.1's, the Dynaudio center, the DAC3 and AHB2 and a BlueSound Node during one of many tests. The equipment rack is to the right of the fireplace. The plasma display is covered by the home theater screen when it is pulled down from the ceiling.

Very nice system. I'd be concerned about the apparent bare brickwork in the listening room, though.

I too have an Adcom 555 I bought new way back in the 1980's, that I find good but not outstanding, that I have used with my CLS II's. When I got my Parasound JC-1 monoblocks I was particularly impressed with how well it reproduced the treble register of the piano.

You must have a nice piano in your home. How do you and your wife think the system does at reproducing the sound of a live piano?

I use my system for both HT and music, but music is by far my top priority.. But my tastes include organ music and Mahler symphonies (which sometimes include an organ) and I like having the sub active for music. I have a Parasound P7 pre, which does "bass management" in the sense that when playing 2 channel sources it feeds a L+R signal to the sub output, and when used with a multichannel source, it uses the LFE channel for that source. I use it in "theater bypass" mode for most video sources, with an Outlaw 975 pre/proc. You should check out an option like that (though the P7 is long out of production). Or maybe you'd just rather listen to music on a "purist" two channel system.

I also have a Benchmark DAC which is currently relegated to the bedroom system. If I ever need an external DAC again I'll consider Benchmark. There stuff is solidly built and the company is comfortable in both the pro and domestic audio markets. I first encountered them, actually, when I worked in broadcasting.

So keep on enjoying your ML speakers and, hopefully, our little forum group.

 

[Rascal]

Hi back and thanks for your interest and remarks.

As far as the brickwork goes, it hasn't proven to be an issue. The brickwork is clearly solid (it doesn't vibrate), it's not polished (like sheet rock), and, as I explained, the mid- and high-frequency back waves are attenuated by absorbers (the red panels in the photo). The room is not perfect, but the results achieved are very satisfying.

FWIW, the Adcom GFA-555 is a great bargain, but out of the box it is woefully lacking in power supply bypassing in the upper frequencies. The amp relies solely on the giant electrolytics to handle all of the bypassing over the entire frequency range. Now, the amp design is relatively insensitive to power supply fluctuation, but for really outstanding results, one can do much better. Big electrolyic caps (15,000 mfd) don't act like capacitors at high frequencies -- they look inductive. Adding small electrolytic caps (say, 25-40 mfd) paralleled by smaller poly caps (say, .01 to .1 mfd) at critical spots, like the connections to the driver and output module PC boards, greatly stiffens the power bus at the upper end and takes away the rough or raspy quality that is otherwise present.

I participated in a group discussion with Nelson Pass a few months ago and asked him why there was so little high frequency bypassing in this design, and he wryly responded, "Well, Adcom was working to a budget. ..."

Even with this added bypassing, the GDFA-555 still has an odd way of behaving during shut down (it sometimes squeals and groans), and it offers NO output protection which, given the cost of modern speakers, isn't so cool. One can always use in-line fuses, but ... well, let's just say there are better alternatives these days.

Regarding using subs for stereo listening, in my home theater room setup, I could add a feed to the two subs even during stereo listening. But frankly, in my room, it really isn't necessary. I say this as someone who enjoys an occasional listen to pipe organ with the best of the bass enthusiasts. For my situation, the only real need for the subs is that rattle-the-butt performance from the LFE channel during action movie viewing. All of this is, of course, entirely my opinion and experience.

With regard to real pianos vs. HiFi playback, the Montis pair combined with the Benchmark gear are pretty adequate. Even real pianos are at the mercy of the room they're in, and no room in my house is built like a concert hall. Having said that, on a good day with a properly made recording, the presentation of recorded piano through the Montis pair is pretty convincing. It's not perfect, but IMHO NO stereo HiFi totally gets it exactly right, even for the fortunate person sitting at the sweet spot. The Benchmark electronics have really made a difference in the total sound delivery, especially in works where there is a great deal going on. My wife often comments, "Wow, I didn't realize THAT was in the recording!"

The best speakers in my home for faithfully reproducing pianos are a venerable pair of KEF 105.1's powered by (yet another and somewhat better behaved) Adcom GFA-555 driven by a Benchmark DAC2. However, this is in a different room, the music studio, where the two full size grand pianos are located, and not the home theater. I have moved the KEFs into the home theater on occasion for testing, but actually, the Montis pair work better in the home theater.

If anyone is interested, I can describe how the Montis sound differs from that of the KEFs, but maybe that's best done in a separate topic.

As long as we're discussing piano sound, I can recommend a good playback test recording, the pairing of Martha Argerich and Nelson Freire on two grand pianos:

https://www.amazon.com/Martha-Arger...5979264&sprefix=argerich+freire,aps,73&sr=8-1
Listen to the Rachmaninoff Suite played by these two exceptional virtuosos. If played back well, the powerful attacks should be felt viscerally in the gut. If the amp and speakers are behaving themselves, the individual finger work should be cleanly delineated and effortless. The voicing should be uniform, with no notes or range of notes "sticking out."

 

[perryz]

LOL at the Montis joke. Yah I'm sure it sounds amazing. I had the McIntosh MC452 pushing my Montis before getting the 15A's. They really sang with that amp.

The Mc 452 is a fantastic amp