New member from The Netherlands

[Jabba]

Hello to you all Martin Logan owners. Just been accepted as a member, and want to introduce myself and the reason(s) to become a member.
After years of listening to Quads (esl 57 and 63) I own a pair of Electromotions for about a year now. i always thought that Quads were paramount, but now I know better . About half a year ago we moved to a detached house, and that gave me some more room to play my music a bit louder than usual, to kind of approach the experience of a live concert in the best possible way (i mostly play classical music and jazz, and some psytrance, techno and prog rock on the side). The Electromotions are able to play quite loud, but I sometimes get the feeling the staging could be more convincing using ML’s with somewhat larger panels. I am interested right now in a pair of ML Ethos speakers, and wonder if anyone of you did a similar upgrade.
Btw, I use a Cambridge Audio CXA81 and CXN v2 as amplifier streamer set, with a Marantz cd17 MKII Ki signature cd-player.
I hope to learn and hear all kinds of tips and new stuff here.
Best regards, Jabba

 

[Robert D]

Have you tried angling the speakers in some, especially since they look fairly far apart? Toe in.

 

[Jabba]

Have you tried angling the speakers in some, especially since they look fairly far apart? Toe in.

Yes, of course I tried all placements and positions, including what is suggested in the manual, using a flashlight to get the right angles. Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy with how they sound now, after experimenting with better cables and such. But once you’ve listened to some larger panels, you know that it can still be better.

 

[Robert D]

Yes, of course I tried all placements and positions, including what is suggested in the manual, using a flashlight to get the right angles. Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy with how they sound now, after experimenting with better cables and such. But once you’ve listened to some larger panels, you know that it can still be better.

I've never owned smaller panels than my Prodigy speakers. The panels are pretty big. They sound great. The room is about 19x20.

 

[Jabba]

I've never owned smaller panels than my Prodigy speakers. The panels are pretty big. They sound great. The room is about 19x20.

Yes, the Prodigies are huge compared to my Electromotions, and go much lower, down to 28 Hz (Electromotions: 42 Hz). That's quite a difference!.
By the way, my room is 10x15, but we’ll have it enlarged to 15x18 next year.

 

[Leporello]

Hello to you all Martin Logan owners. Just been accepted as a member, and want to introduce myself and the reason(s) to become a member.
After years of listening to Quads (esl 57 and 63) I own a pair of Electromotions for about a year now. i always thought that Quads were paramount, but now I know better . About half a year ago we moved to a detached house, and that gave me some more room to play my music a bit louder than usual, to kind of approach the experience of a live concert in the best possible way (i mostly play classical music and jazz, and some psytrance, techno and prog rock on the side). The Electromotions are able to play quite loud, but I sometimes get the feeling the staging could be more convincing using ML’s with somewhat larger panels. I am interested right now in a pair of ML Ethos speakers, and wonder if anyone of you did a similar upgrade.
Btw, I use a Cambridge Audio CXA81 and CXN v2 as amplifier streamer set, with a Marantz cd17 MKII Ki signature cd-player.
I hope to learn and hear all kinds of tips and new stuff here.
Best regards, Jabba

Not sure if larger panels, by themselves, would improve staging. They might improve the size of the "sweet spot". They can also buy you a lower crossover point, giving you that ESL magic over a wider frequency range. Also, later ML hybrids (from what I've heard) offer better panel to woofer integration than earlier models.

There are a lot of other things that can screw up the illusion of a soundstage, particularly early reflections. You have a head start with ESL's because they radiate a lot of energy forward and not much to the sides. but they also radiate about an equal amount toward the wall behind them. If you can't get them more than about 3' from that wall then you might try some absorption or stochastic diffusion, such as from a QRD. There's almost a consensus here that totally absorbing the sound from behind the panels tends to make them sound dead. Your mileage can vary, widely. 3' is a rule of thumb, but beyond that the ear tends to perceive the reflected sound as not part of the source.

I'm using full range (CLS II) ESL's, no crossovers for me (except to the sub) in an admittedly suboptimally sized room for them, and loving it. The imaging is fantastic from my sweet spot and if there happens to be anyone else listening with me, I am almost always the only one who really cares about imaging.

We have similar musical tastes. If you like to play classical music loud, you may be a fan of Mahler symphonies, as I am. But I'm also a huge fan of chamber and baroque music, which I like no louder than real life. And music for the clavichord, which you have to be especially careful not to play unnaturally loud.

I once heard Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" at a concert from a seat near the front and center, and concluded it really is as loud as they like to play it in hi fi shops.

 

[Jabba]

Not sure if larger panels, by themselves, would improve staging. They might improve the size of the "sweet spot". They can also buy you a lower crossover point, giving you that ESL magic over a wider frequency range. Also, later ML hybrids (from what I've heard) offer better panel to woofer integration than earlier models.

There are a lot of other things that can screw up the illusion of a soundstage, particularly early reflections. You have a head start with ESL's because they radiate a lot of energy forward and not much to the sides. but they also radiate about an equal amount toward the wall behind them. If you can't get them more than about 3' from that wall then you might try some absorption or stochastic diffusion, such as from a QRD. There's almost a consensus here that totally absorbing the sound from behind the panels tends to make them sound dead. Your mileage can vary, widely. 3' is a rule of thumb, but beyond that the ear tends to perceive the reflected sound as not part of the source.

I'm using full range (CLS II) ESL's, no crossovers for me (except to the sub) in an admittedly suboptimally sized room for them, and loving it. The imaging is fantastic from my sweet spot and if there happens to be anyone else listening with me, I am almost always the only one who really cares about imaging.

We have similar musical tastes. If you like to play classical music loud, you may be a fan of Mahler symphonies, as I am. But I'm also a huge fan of chamber and baroque music, which I like no louder than real life. And music for the clavichord, which you have to be especially careful not to play unnaturally loud.

I once heard Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" at a concert from a seat near the front and center, and concluded it really is as loud as they like to play it in hi fi shops.

You are right of course regarding the staging part. I actually meant that I would like a more lifelike experience, going to concerts myself now and then, both classical (e.g. The rite of Spring or Bruckners 9th with Chailly in the Concertgebouw in 2025!) as dance, trance or rock (Underworld, Juno Reactor). Hence my assumption that I not only need larger panels, but bigger active subs/woofers as well, to go deeper and have more sound pressure in the lower regions. The Ethos can do this better than my current Electromotions (34 to 23.000 Hz vs 42 to 22.000 Hz, radiating area 292 in² vs 405 in²), while still within my budget range.
I am actually in the middle of arranging a listening session at a dealer in Belgium, who offers a pair of used ones for a very reasonable price.

 

[garmtz]

Hi fellow Dutchman! I do feel that larger panels give a large image and have a tendency to fill out the space between the panels with a more 'dense' sound. The real upgrade from the EM is a pair of Spire. They are the sweet spot in the line at the moment. A Summit would also be great.

 

[Jabba]

@garmtz I am really happy now with my Ethos speakers. I wouldn’t want any bigger/larger speakers in my current living/listening room, since the Ethos are already quite a bit larger (both in footprint and heigth) than the Electromotions. Their sound is wonderful, detailed, smooth, open and al in all quite impressive, particularly in the lower regions. After I added a separate dac (matrix audio X-sabre pro), I hardly can imagine it could get any better than thIs!