New here but not to ML/Amp Upgrades Rec ?

[Mia_G]

Hi everyone,
I have no idea how I was not a part of this community already but I'm happy to be here now.
I'm Mia and I am a former seller of ML and a owner for a little over 6 years.
I'm thinking of an amp ugrade but I'm unsure of what may be best.
I have a pair of ML ESL's (the base models) powered by a Rotel RMB-1585 w/ a Marantz Cinema 50 acting as pre-pro.
The full system is all ML and is 7.2.4 ( not listed full system specs to keep my post shorter and relevant to my question).
I'm happy with the configuration for the other speakers but for my L/R , I know it can sound even better.
I've had the pleasure of hearing them powered by Simaudio amplification as a demo and I was blown away !
( I knew someone who owned a hi-fi shop that sold Simaudio).
I cannot afford Simaudio (yet) , so what are some good suggestions that would sound better than my current Rotel ?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions

 

[VideoVic]

Hello Mia ! Welcome to MLO ! I recently asked the same question, to get suggestions to upgrade my Rotel RB-1582MKII amp for my ESL-X speakers (One step up from yours) in a 2-channel set up. You didn't say what your budget is, but many of the suggestions I received were for a Sanders ESL amp, or their upgrade MagTech amp which are specifically designed to power electrostatic speakers. Check them out, they currently have a used ESL version on their website for $3k ! New ones are in the $6 -7 k range

Best regards ! and happy listening

 

[Mia_G]

Hello Mia ! Welcome to MLO ! I recently asked the same question, to get suggestions to upgrade my Rotel RB-1582MKII amp for my ESL-X speakers (One step up from yours) in a 2-channel set up. You didn't say what your budget is, but many of the suggestions I received were for a Sanders ESL amp, or their upgrade MagTech amp which are specifically designed to power electrostatic speakers. Check them out, they currently have a used ESL version on their website for $3k ! New ones are in the $6 -7 k range

Best regards ! and happy listening

Hi Vic,
Thanks for welcoming me. I'll take a look at those suggestions, thanks for mentioning them.
My budget is somewhat flexible but I mentioned Simaudio being to much as joke to say ,
I'm not trying to spend that kind of money ($25K+)...someday but not now.
I used to be a Hi-Fi sales person so I know that proper amplification will be costly, so I'm not in a rush, I have no problem waiting/saving a bit more.

Have you upgraded as yet and if so what did you go with ?

 

[VideoVic]

Hi Vic,
Thanks for welcoming me. I'll take a look at those suggestions, thanks for mentioning them.
My budget is somewhat flexible but I mentioned Simaudio being to much as joke to say ,
I'm not trying to spend that kind of money ($25K+)...someday but not now.
I used to be a Hi-Fi sales person so I know that proper amplification will be costly, so I'm not in a rush, I have no problem waiting/saving a bit more.

Have you upgraded as yet and if so what did you go with ?

I used to be an audio salesperson too!
My budget is much smaller for two reasons; one is I am retired and secondly I hope to upgrade to the ESL9 speakers someday, and a new preamp. But right now I think the Rotel amp is my primary concern. It isn't bad for a $2k amp but I don't think it handles the low impedances of the speakers very well.
I will re-purpose it to drive the ESL-X woofers in a biamp confifuration so I'm deciding between the two Sanders amps, leaning towards the MagTech. But my budget is only (!) $8k and I also have to add a pair of interconnects, new speaker cables, a new power cord and a set of isolators for it which will probably bump me over $8k if I go with the MagTech. I'll keep you posted !

 

[ttocs]

Welcome @Mia_G! As @VideoVic just posted, the Rotels don't like low impedances. I really wanted to buy a Rotel about a dozen or so years ago, but when I contacted Rotel and mentioned the ML speakers I had just purchase they said it wouldn't be a good match. Anything below 4Ω is not what the Rotel amps are designed for.

Now, there are some workarounds, like using Anticables ZERO Autoformers which I used when I was running tube amps, and later with a solid state amp that enjoyed the extra help from the doubling of the impedance the autoformers provided.

But in the end, one of the best of the slightly affordable but super capable amp suggestions out there is from Sanders Sound Systems. Of any amplifier in the $6k-$8k range today, I'd get the Sanders ESL Mk II amp which is designed specifically for electrostatic speakers. The Magtech amp is designed for magnetic speakers but is still stable for low impedance. I've asked to hear from anyone who was not satisfied with a Sanders amp and have never gotten a reply, so I only know of happy Sanders owners when mated to ML speakers.

 

[Russr]

I'll join in as a former audio techie/sales guy (a long, long time ago when I was in HS and college).

For amplification and speakers, I've always visited the used market.

For most of the last 20+ years, I've been switched on to Bryston amps (4B-ST's in particular, 9B-ST for HT). Those particular models are a bit long in the tooth these days (20-25 years old), but still worthwhile if you can get it for under $1,000. If something goes wrong, Bryston's price to fix is about $800, plus some of the shipping. Their amplification gear comes with a 20 year warranty when bought new and is transferable, and has been popular in Pro studios, cinemas, etc. for decades. Newer models would include 4B-SST and 4B3 (cubed).

Of late, I've also become enamored with Anthem MCA range of amplifiers. 2 Channel 22W amps can be had for $700-$2,000. I've been using their pre/pro's with my Bryston amps for 20+ years, driving SL3 fronts, Theater/Stage and Aerius i rears.

In general, I find the used market allows for some "healthy experimentation" without busting the bank, and then once the vision for an "end-stage" system forms, cherry pick from what you have experienced as you replace/upgrade components.

Glad to have you aboard... a nearly singular rose amongst the forest of thorns out here!

Russ

 

[Mia_G]

Welcome @Mia_G! As @VideoVic just posted, the Rotels don't like low impedances. I really wanted to buy a Rotel about a dozen or so years ago, but when I contacted Rotel and mentioned the ML speakers I had just purchase they said it wouldn't be a good match. Anything below 4Ω is not what the Rotel amps are designed for.

Now, there are some workarounds, like using Anticables ZERO Autoformers which I used when I was running tube amps, and later with a solid state amp that enjoyed the extra help from the doubling of the impedance the autoformers provided.

But in the end, one of the best of the slightly affordable but super capable amp suggestions out there is from Sanders Sound Systems. Of any amplifier in the $6k-$8k range today, I'd get the Sanders ESL Mk II amp which is designed specifically for electrostatic speakers. The Magtech amp is designed for magnetic speakers but is still stable for low impedance. I've asked to hear from anyone who was not satisfied with a Sanders amp and have never gotten a reply, so I only know of happy Sanders owners when mated to ML speakers.

Hey ttocs,
Thanks for welcoming me !
Its possible that was Rotel a few years ago, my RMB-1585 is rated for @ 310W/Ch (5 channels driven, 4Ω), which I'm not driving all 5 channels, I'm driving 3 channels L/C/R . My issue is that I know the ESL's can sound better..hearing them on that Simaudio amp was a gift and a curse haha !
Though they are the smallest and lowest end of the line up I know they can sound even better.
I'm patient though, I'm just curious about what's next.
I'm definetely curious about the Sanders Sound Systems amps, I'll have to see how their 30 Day in Home Trial works to test out the Sanders ESL MK II.

 

[Mia_G]

I'll join in as a former audio techie/sales guy (a long, long time ago when I was in HS and college).

For amplification and speakers, I've always visited the used market.

For most of the last 20+ years, I've been switched on to Bryston amps (4B-ST's in particular, 9B-ST for HT). Those particular models are a bit long in the tooth these days (20-25 years old), but still worthwhile if you can get it for under $1,000. If something goes wrong, Bryston's price to fix is about $800, plus some of the shipping. Their amplification gear comes with a 20 year warranty when bought new and is transferable, and has been popular in Pro studios, cinemas, etc. for decades. Newer models would include 4B-SST and 4B3 (cubed).

Of late, I've also become enamored with Anthem MCA range of amplifiers. 2 Channel 22W amps can be had for $700-$2,000. I've been using their pre/pro's with my Bryston amps for 20+ years, driving SL3 fronts, Theater/Stage and Aerius i rears.

In general, I find the used market allows for some "healthy experimentation" without busting the bank, and then once the vision for an "end-stage" system forms, cherry pick from what you have experienced as you replace/upgrade components.

Glad to have you aboard... a nearly singular rose amongst the forest of thorns out here!

Russ

Hey Russ,

Nice to meet yet another former Hi-Fi/tech person, I'm sure there are many of us here .
I've heard of Bryston but I haven't had the pleasure of hearing them. I'll start looking in the area for some deals.
I do like Anthem but I haven't heard them with electrostats so I'd be curious to know how they sound.
I don't mind used for experminenting also, I'll definetly start looking around to see what I find in my area.
I appreciate your suggestions.

Thanks for the warm welcome , I'm happy to be here also !

 

[Mia_G]

I used to be an audio salesperson too!
My budget is much smaller for two reasons; one is I am retired and secondly I hope to upgrade to the ESL9 speakers someday, and a new preamp. But right now I think the Rotel amp is my primary concern. It isn't bad for a $2k amp but I don't think it handles the low impedances of the speakers very well.
I will re-purpose it to drive the ESL-X woofers in a biamp confifuration so I'm deciding between the two Sanders amps, leaning towards the MagTech. But my budget is only (!) $8k and I also have to add a pair of interconnects, new speaker cables, a new power cord and a set of isolators for it which will probably bump me over $8k if I go with the MagTech. I'll keep you posted !

Nice to meet another former Hi-Fi sales person !

I'm content with my Rotel but I heard that Simaudio and it was over haha !
I'll definetely be taking everyones suggestions and seeing how may I can audition.
I'm wishing you well on your upgrade journey.

 

[Brad225]

Welcome Mia. You need to be careful. People here will help you spend your savings in a heart beat.

 

[VideoVic]

Welcome @Mia_G! As @VideoVic just posted, the Rotels don't like low impedances. I really wanted to buy a Rotel about a dozen or so years ago, but when I contacted Rotel and mentioned the ML speakers I had just purchase they said it wouldn't be a good match. Anything below 4Ω is not what the Rotel amps are designed for.

Now, there are some workarounds, like using Anticables ZERO Autoformers which I used when I was running tube amps, and later with a solid state amp that enjoyed the extra help from the doubling of the impedance the autoformers provided.

But in the end, one of the best of the slightly affordable but super capable amp suggestions out there is from Sanders Sound Systems. Of any amplifier in the $6k-$8k range today, I'd get the Sanders ESL Mk II amp which is designed specifically for electrostatic speakers. The Magtech amp is designed for magnetic speakers but is still stable for low impedance. I've asked to hear from anyone who was not satisfied with a Sanders amp and have never gotten a reply, so I only know of happy Sanders owners when mated to ML speakers.

Hello TTOCS and thank you for insightful input. May I ask you where or how you came by the information that the Sanders ESL was designed for electrostatic speakers and the MagTech is designed for magnetic type speaker (other than the obvious nomenclature)? I've read both of the Sanders white papers on those amplifiers and been all over the Sanders website trying to decide between the two amps. I didn't see that stated anywhere.

 

[ttocs]

Hello TTOCS and thank you for insightful input. May I ask you where or how you came by the information that the Sanders ESL was designed for electrostatic speakers and the MagTech is designed for magnetic type speaker (other than the obvious nomenclature)? I've read both of the Sanders white papers on those amplifiers and been all over the Sanders website trying to decide between the two amps. I didn't see that stated anywhere.

From the Sanders web site for the Magtech amp.
Magtech Amp

Here's a quote from near the top of that page:
" The popularity and success of the Electrostatic Amplifier (the "ESL Amp") for driving electrostatic speakers led to many requests for a companion amplifier that was specifically designed for driving conventional magnetic speakers. Two years in development, the Magtech amplifier is that amplifier. "

I've been drooling over these amps for a long time and am super tempted to try the ESL Amp. I'm very happy with the amp I'm using now, but just keep wondering . . . . .

 

[VideoVic]

From the Sanders web site for the Magtech amp.
Magtech Amp

Here's a quote from near the top of that page:
" The popularity and success of the Electrostatic Amplifier (the "ESL Amp") for driving electrostatic speakers led to many requests for a companion amplifier that was specifically designed for driving conventional magnetic speakers. Two years in development, the Magtech amplifier is that amplifier. "

I've been drooling over these amps for a long time and am super tempted to try the ESL Amp. I'm very happy with the amp I'm using now, but just keep wondering . . . . .

Thanks for the clarification TTOCS. Good to hear from a fellow ILLINOISIAN ! I live in Marengo, about 40 miles west of Chi-town. As much as I would LOVE the MagTech that extra $1000.00 will pay for new power, speaker and interconnect cables so I am going to "settle" for the ESL. I know it will sound light years better than my Rotel, and it will make my "budget manager" (WIFE !) happy.

 

[Jazzman53]

Hi Mia,

Welcome to the forum.

I personally use vintage Carver TFM-25's to drive my hybrid ESLs but I have a friend who drives his ESLs with a VTV amp. The VTV amps are class D. I have historically been leary of class D amps but class D has come a long way, and VTV amps use Hypex cores, which are accurate, musical and pack some serious punch.

https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier/

BTW; I've often wondered why there are so few women audiophiles... nice to welcome you here.

Enjoy the forum!

Charlie

 

[Leporello]

Hi Mia,

Good to see a woman in the hobby. I've known one or two in my life, not many.

I agree with searching the used market. People love to upgrade, and can leave behind some spectacularly great used equipment.

I got a used pair of Parasound JC-1's on auction from USA Audio Mart. I don't remember the exact selling price but the price was manageable for me, whereas the current JC-1+ is well out of my price range. They are a significant improvement over anything I had previously used to drive my CLS II's, which have a particularly abusive impedance curve. The upper range of the piano suddenly became more lifelike, like the nice piano I have in the next room.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Mia, Welcome!
I would definitely look in the used market. There are a lot of good buys and it will help you get to where you want to be. I think I speak for a lot of use here that we have traded sideways and up a long the way to get there. I did have a Rotel back in the day but it got "thin" when I raised the volume and not by a lot. I have used several Conrad Johnson amps, Nargra PMA stereo amp and if I had the mono blocks because I may still be running them but now I have settled on a Pass Labs.
May your journey be a pleasant one with not too many bumps in the road. We are here to help and of course help you spend your money for you.
Jeff

 

[Mia_G]

Hi Mia,

Welcome to the forum.

I personally use vintage Carver TFM-25's to drive my hybrid ESLs but I have a friend who drives his ESLs with a VTV amp. The VTV amps are class D. I have historically been leary of class D amps but class D has come a long way, and VTV amps use Hypex cores, which are accurate, musical and pack some serious punch.

https://vtvamplifier.com/product/vtv-amplifier-stereo-purifi-audio-1et400a-amplifier/

BTW; I've often wondered why there are so few women audiophiles... nice to welcome you here.

Enjoy the forum!

Charlie

Hmm , I'll have to look into some Carvers, I know of them but I've never had a chance to hear them in person.
I appreciate your recommendation.

In my experience some women may feel intimidated because it is a male dominated space but I've never let it stop me haha.
Thanks for the warm welcome !

 

[Mia_G]

Hi Mia,

Good to see a woman in the hobby. I've known one or two in my life, not many.

I agree with searching the used market. People love to upgrade, and can leave behind some spectacularly great used equipment.

I got a used pair of Parasound JC-1's on auction from USA Audio Mart. I don't remember the exact selling price but the price was manageable for me, whereas the current JC-1+ is well out of my price range. They are a significant improvement over anything I had previously used to drive my CLS II's, which have a particularly abusive impedance curve. The upper range of the piano suddenly became more lifelike, like the nice piano I have in the next room.

Hey there,
I'm sure there are a lot of us but may women may just be shy to speak up.
Thakns for the warm welcome !

I do love searching the used market but I'm also a bit leary of it to some extent but I appreciate your recommendations.
I have heard Parasound just not on Electrostats, so now I'm curious about how they would sound based on your experience.

 

[Mia_G]

Mia, Welcome!
I would definitely look in the used market. There are a lot of good buys and it will help you get to where you want to be. I think I speak for a lot of use here that we have traded sideways and up a long the way to get there. I did have a Rotel back in the day but it got "thin" when I raised the volume and not by a lot. I have used several Conrad Johnson amps, Nargra PMA stereo amp and if I had the mono blocks because I may still be running them but now I have settled on a Pass Labs.
May your journey be a pleasant one with not too many bumps in the road. We are here to help and of course help you spend your money for you.
Jeff

Hey Jeff,

As I've mentioned to a couple other folks I'm not opposed to used, I'm just a bit leary and wanting some direction based on brands others have enjoyed with their ESL/electrostats over the years. I've gotten a lot of good suggestions so now I have some options to explore.
I appreciate you all thus far and thanks for the warm welcome !

 

[JonFo]

Hi Vic,
Thanks for welcoming me. I'll take a look at those suggestions, thanks for mentioning them.
My budget is somewhat flexible but I mentioned Simaudio being to much as joke to say ,
I'm not trying to spend that kind of money ($25K+)...someday but not now.
I used to be a Hi-Fi sales person so I know that proper amplification will be costly, so I'm not in a rush, I have no problem waiting/saving a bit more.

Have you upgraded as yet and if so what did you go with ?

A very budget-friendly alternative amp is a used Sunfire Stereo amp. Look for one refurbished in the past 5 to 10 years, and it will last you decades.
I have multiple Sunfire amps and two Sanders amps, and my oldest Sunfire is from 1993. I had it refurbished in 2009 ($700). The Sunfire Cinema Grand is from '96, and the Cinema Grand Signature is from 2000, and all are going strong decades later.
Tip: the first couple of digits of the serial number is the year it was made. Two digits pre-2000, three digits post.

Note: Given the popularity of the Cinema Grand, those go for less than the Stereo amp, so that's an option. If you get ESL models that can be be Biamped (eg passive woofer models), then you'd have the extra pair of channels to do that with.