New ElectroMotion compared to Theos

[miatancdan]

Its been a long time since I been on this forum...

I have owned electostatic speakers in the past - Acoustat Spectra 22, Martin Logan SL3, Martin Logan Aeon and 1 pr of non electrostatic panel speakers ( Magnepan MG1.6 )

Also tried Dali, JM Focal Lab speakers but always perferred panel speakers.

I know the Source is made in China, as well as some of the subwoofers, not sure if just assembled there or not?

Where is the ElectroMotion ESL being made?

Some models of Martin Logan are made in Canada.

Is it only the Reserve ESL series made in North America?

I have heard the Ethos and feel that some of the engineering learned CLX, Summit X, Ethos, Theos has trickled down to new ElectroMotion ESL...

What I not sure about at this point is what advantage the newer Theos has over ElectoMotion ESL?

- larger panel area 44" x 9.2" Theos vs 34" x 8.6" on ElectroMotion ESL
- aluminum cone woofer on Theos vs paper cone woofer on ElectroMotion ESL
- 20-400 watts recommended Theos , 20-300 watts recommended ElecroMotion ESL

related equipment being used: Bel Canto Dac 1.5 ( used as both dac and preamp ) Bryston BDP-1 digital player / solid state hard drive storing all music in apple AIFF format as my main source. McIntosh MC302 power amplifier, and Velodyne DEQ15 subwoofer. Replacing Dali Icon 2 speakers with Martin Logan.

For anyone here who has heard the Theos and ElectroMotion ESL , is the price difference worth it for Theos or just get ElectroMotion ESL and have money for more music, better cables, room treatment etc

btw room size 12w x 20L

Dan

 

[miatancdan]

Update - Just read blog on toneaudio website that the ElectroMotion ESL is being built at the ML factory in Toronto and the next issue #37 will have a review!!!
So what I like to know at this point if anyone here has heard both the Theos and ElectroMotion ESL and what they feel the sound differences are...

Thanks

 

[Peter Soderberg]

Remember, as an employee of ML I have the bias, but to all of those who have gone to both CES and CEDIA, I did do comparisons between both speakers and for the very reason you need some insight on. On paper, these look virtually identical but in comparsions, everyone heard the improvements that came from better box, xover parts, bit bigger panel, better woofer for the Theos with better image focus, improved bass control, and larger soundstage that one would hope for. This won't take away from the great value of the EM ESL though. We will make friends at both price points.
And yes, if it has a panel it is built in Canada. I did the tour for Tone pub and some other reviewers so an accurate story will be published. For the Tone Pub review, we refurbished some Aerius just so people can see what you could get for $2K in 1991 and what $2K gets you in 2011.

 

[miatancdan]

Remember, as an employee of ML I have the bias, but to all of those who have gone to both CES and CEDIA, I did do comparisons between both speakers and for the very reason you need some insight on. On paper, these look virtually identical but in comparsions, everyone heard the improvements that came from better box, xover parts, bit bigger panel, better woofer for the Theos with better image focus, improved bass control, and larger soundstage that one would hope for. This won't take away from the great value of the EM ESL though. We will make friends at both price points.
And yes, if it has a panel it is built in Canada. I did the tour for Tone pub and some other reviewers so an accurate story will be published. For the Tone Pub review, we refurbished some Aerius just so people can see what you could get for $2K in 1991 and what $2K gets you in 2011.

Thanks Peter

I appreciate your input. I have worked in the audio industry since 1986 doing audio video installations for only high end audio shop in the city I live. The SL3 I used to own were one of my favorites. I look forward to the Tone Pub review, and remember when we were selling these Aerius speakers.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Dan,

All other things being equal, the larger the panel the better.

GG

 

[miatancdan]

Dan,

All other things being equal, the larger the panel the better.

GG

Gordon, I agree with you, the larger the panel the better - when I read the press release it was clear that the ElectroMotion ESL was much better than the Source due to the fact that the ElectroMotion used a larger XStat panel. My first electostatic speakers was the Acoustat Spectra 22 full range panels.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Dan,

My first stat was the 1 + 1`s.

Gordon

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
So it would seem them like the Vista, the EM-ESL uses a North American built Panel combined with a Chinese Made Cabinet. Also, the Vantage was made in Kansas like the Summit, Spire, and CLX and is now made in Canada like them as well. The Reserve ESL Series is a fairly new change in nomenclature as the Vista, Vantage, Spire, Summit, and CLX all used to be in the ESL Series.

I am guessing to help out long time ML Dealers, they split up the Series and moved the more expensive and newest Models to the Reserve ESL Series and kept the fairly old Vista and Vantage in the ESL Series where they can be sold by places like Magnolia HT in Best Buy and the like.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[JordanD]

If I am not mistaken I actually believe that the entire North American supply if ML speakers is produced in Canada, the factory in China is for Asian and European distribution and the facility in Kansas is used for R&D. I could be wrong but I am almost positive that is how it is working right now.

 

[shakham]

Not to take this off topic...
The whole point of outsourcing to Canada was to take advantage of the stronger US dollar (typically $1CND = $0.80US), but lately the US dollar is weaker which defeats the cost savings.

They should be doing the reverse and moving more operations to the US with the way things are today, or at a minimum delay movement to Canada until when the US dollar is stronger.

Take this from an ex-Canadian.

 

[Rich]

If I am not mistaken I actually believe that the entire North American supply if ML speakers is produced in Canada, the factory in China is for Asian and European distribution and the facility in Kansas is used for R&D. I could be wrong but I am almost positive that is how it is working right now.

I don't think so. I believe many of the lower end speakers and subs are manufactured in China for shipment to the U.S. The higher end ESL panel speakers are manufactured at the Canadian facility.

Not to take this off topic...
The whole point of outsourcing to Canada was to take advantage of the stronger US dollar (typically $1CND = $0.80US), but lately the US dollar is weaker which defeats the cost savings.

Who says that was the reason? I thought the reason was to take advantage of the unused capacity of the nice big brand new factory that their sister company Paradigm had in Canada, and to consolidate North American production in one facility. I'm sure there are other reasons for the move as well.

 

[miatancdan]

I decided that in the long run, I be more happy with the Theos as panel area is larger and I never been happy with internal amplifiers used to drive woofers. I feel that the McIntosh MC302 power amplifier ( 300 watts rms per side ) should be able to drive Theos effortless.

Anyone here on this forum know what the panel size used in Acoustats 2+2, Spectra 22 or Spectra 2200 speakers. I assume these speakers have larger panel area than most of the current Martin Logan speakers except of course the CLX.

Dan

 

[shakham]

Who says that was the reason? I thought the reason was to take advantage of the unused capacity of the nice big brand new factory that their sister company Paradigm had in Canada, and to consolidate North American production in one facility. I'm sure there are other reasons for the move as well.

All are factors in the decision....I agree. Paradigm is a Canadian company (from my understanding). Consolidation can be done in either location.

The big reason US companies do manufacturing in Canada is due to the lower costs. The weaker Canadian dollar helps a ton, and typically they use rural areas (aka automobile manufacturing in Windsor).

But in this case....it's the opposite....
Median household income in:
Lawrence, Kansas: $35K in 2000 ($40K in 2009)
Mississauga, Ontario: $68K in 2000

Now, don't forget that this isn't apples to apples, as $35K is net to the household. From the employer perspective, you need to add health insurance...so estimate an additional $20K per household in the US.

So...
Considering the a poorer town in a Kansas City suburb versus one of the most expensive cities in a Toronto suburb.
And factoring in the really strong CND dollar.

Outsourcing to Canada makes no sense in the short term.

Regardless though...
Canadians also know how to make top-of-the-line speakers, so I am not too concerned about quality.

Now China...

 

[Ikehgl]

I would like to get Theos spks. I don't have an Amp. yet and will get an integrated one.
I read that the Theos require from 20 to 400 watts per channel.
Does it mean that 20W Amp is enough and anything between that and 400W will do the job?

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

I would like to get Theos spks. I don't have an Amp. yet and will get an integrated one.
I read that the Theos require from 20 to 400 watts per channel.
Does it mean that 20W Amp is enough and anything between that and 400W will do the job?

Get something that can drive 2 ohm, that's way more important than total power output.

 

[Leporello]

Dan,

My first stat was the 1 + 1`s.

Gordon

Mine too.

 

[Ikehgl]

Get something that can drive 2 ohm, that's way more important than total power output.

I would like to get recommendations for a used integrated Amp that can drive 2 ohms into Theos speakers.
My budget is up to $1000.

 

[Russr]

For a reason I do not quite understand, good quality Integrated amps retain their value way better than an equivalent (often, even higher spec'ed) power amp. If you look at Anthem MCA 20's or 225's, or Bryston 4B-STs, you should find some great amps for $600 - $1,000. The similar Integrated amps seem to go for over $1,000, mostly at 1/2 the power rating.

My personal fav is the Bryston 4B-ST - you can find them for about $800 nowadays. NOTE: The 4B, 4B-NRB, 4B-ST, $B-SST and 4B^3 (in that order) range in age, capabilities and price.

If you already have a1/2-decent Receiver or stereo amp, check if they have line-outs and use that to drive the Power Amp. The power amp can be hidden a bit out the way, so long as it has ventilation.

Just my $0.02

Russ

 

[Ikehgl]

For a reason I do not quite understand, good quality Integrated amps retain their value way better than an equivalent (often, even higher spec'ed) power amp. If you look at Anthem MCA 20's or 225's, or Bryston 4B-STs, you should find some great amps for $600 - $1,000. The similar Integrated amps seem to go for over $1,000, mostly at 1/2 the power rating.

My personal fav is the Bryston 4B-ST - you can find them for about $800 nowadays. NOTE: The 4B, 4B-NRB, 4B-ST, $B-SST and 4B^3 (in that order) range in age, capabilities and price.

If you already have a1/2-decent Receiver or stereo amp, check if they have line-outs and use that to drive the Power Amp. The power amp can be hidden a bit out the way, so long as it has ventilation.

Just my $0.02

Russ

I dont have a receiver or power amp.
Are all these models mentioned above integrated amps.?
I dont want to buy separates, only power and pre integrated.
I g
Googled a few of these models and they are power amps. Still need a pre amp. Correct ?

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

I'd strongly suggest taking a week or 2 to do some more research before making any decisions, after you feel you have a good understanding of what you want go check out some used audio websites.