New and curious!

[seerabike]

Hey hey fellas and ladies. I'm Travis. Live in Tennessee. And am chasing the high of my long-ago first experience with electrostatics. I'm probably posting this in the won't section and I do apologize and will change it if directed!

I've hunted through some threads on this and chatted with ML about my questions back in the day, but am still not convinced I'm doing things right or that I'm finding accurate answers. Which basically boil down to: what is the minimum gear to push these speakers, given my room, that will showcase the beauty of electrostatics but not necessarily chase perfection.

Finally bit the bullet a few years back and bought a pair of esl-x. Added an svs sub. The round one, because it's lovely (https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000-pro). Then it came to what am I gonna push it all with. I couldn't afford anywhere near the ideal setup and just wanted something. I felt like the advice I was getting was to spend thousands on gear that should help a bit of the room is right and my audio sources are right and all things in life are perfect.

I slightly jest. Anyway.

I ended up getting a MiniDSP SHD Power (https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-power). Along with svs cables (https://www.svsound.com/products/svs-soundpath-ultra-bi-wire-speaker-cable). And ya that's it. I have used a mic to correct for the room best it can.

I'm attaching photos of my space. I have 9' between speakers, they are 20" off the walls, and there is 14' to the sofa. The paneling behind them is wood acoustic dampening.

I have little smart speakers all throughout the house for everyday background audio. These do push audio for movies and such but have no surrounds and don't care much about them. My favorite evening is a nice sipping tequila and streaming (not Tidal or anything fancy, I couldn't hear the difference, though I blame the setup not the high-def format) jazz. Though 3 glasses in I've been known to move to 90's emo.

My thoughts/suspicions are as follows (and I would love advice). I'm not giving these what they really need. Possible at all. Possibly I'm giving them 70% of what they need but the other 30% isn't worth fighting for with a sub-optimal room. I don't think I have the clarity I should and find myself just turning it louder and louder. Would love some advice on gear!

 

[VideoVic]

Hello Travis. Welcome to the ML Owners site ! Your setup is similar to mine, as I have the ESL-X and an SVS SB-3000 sub. I think you might be seated a bit far from the speakers to be in the best sweet spot. Also, having the speakers 20" off the walls puts the rear firing woofer almost flush with the wall and that is certainly affecting how they sound. The speakers need room to "breathe". Additionally, I found removing the rear woofer grills (covers) made an audible improvement in my room.

My speakers are 30" from the wall and I am seated about 9-1/2 feet from the speakers. The sweet spot is truly spectacular there for me but unfortunately it is only wide enough for one seat. I realize you room is quite different than mine but it might be worth moving the speakers out from the wall to see if it improves the sweet spot. Also you could be experiencing some "slap echo" off that wall and window behind the couch, and that can impact the clarity of the audio arriving at your ears. I had mine setup like yours in my previous home and never felt I was getting all that the speakers should deliver and when we moved to our new house where there is no wall behind my couch I could not believe the improvement. I realize you can't do much due to the window wall as far as room treatments behind your couch but you might find moving the sofa a foot or so off that wall will provide a benefit.

That being said , you asked for electronic recommendations. My current setup includes a ROTEL RC-1590 PREAMP and a ROTEL RB-1582MKII power amp (200/ch into 8 ohms with an AUDIOQUEST "WATER" BALANCED XLR cable between them) for a few years now. The current versions of these two with a decent connecting cable would cost around $4,000.00 total. You didn't say what your budget is, but I think this is the minimum cost range to consider.

I am generally pleased with these, but long to upgrade at least the amp to something that can better handle the lower impedances of the speakers (maybe a SANDERS or PASS LABS at some future date). I know ROTEL is not the epitome of "high-end" audio for most of the folks on this site but they can get you close to where you want to be for a reasonable investment.

Hope I've been some help. Good luck with your quest.

Victor F

 

[Reverb]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[seerabike]

Hello Travis. Welcome to the ML Owners site ! Your setup is similar to mine, as I have the ESL-X and an SVS SB-3000 sub. I think you might be seated a bit far from the speakers to be in the best sweet spot. Also, having the speakers 20" off the walls puts the rear firing woofer almost flush with the wall and that is certainly affecting how they sound. The speakers need room to "breathe". Additionally, I found removing the rear woofer grills (covers) made an audible improvement in my room.

My speakers are 30" from the wall and I am seated about 9-1/2 feet from the speakers. The sweet spot is truly spectacular there for me but unfortunately it is only wide enough for one seat. I realize you room is quite different than mine but it might be worth moving the speakers out from the wall to see if it improves the sweet spot. Also you could be experiencing some "slap echo" off that wall and window behind the couch, and that can impact the clarity of the audio arriving at your ears. I had mine setup like yours in my previous home and never felt I was getting all that the speakers should deliver and when we moved to our new house where there is no wall behind my couch I could not believe the improvement. I realize you can't do much due to the window wall as far as room treatments behind your couch but you might find moving the sofa a foot or so off that wall will provide a benefit.

That being said , you asked for electronic recommendations. My current setup includes a ROTEL RC-1590 PREAMP and a ROTEL RB-1582MKII power amp (200/ch into 8 ohms with an AUDIOQUEST "WATER" BALANCED XLR cable between them) for a few years now. The current versions of these two with a decent connecting cable would cost around $4,000.00 total. You didn't say what your budget is, but I think this is the minimum cost range to consider.

I am generally pleased with these, but long to upgrade at least the amp to something that can better handle the lower impedances of the speakers (maybe a SANDERS or PASS LABS at some future date). I know ROTEL is not the epitome of "high-end" audio for most of the folks on this site but they can get you close to where you want to be for a reasonable investment.

Hope I've been some help. Good luck with your quest.

Victor F

Victor what a fantastic response, thank you so much for taking the time. I have the speakers pulled out now and am sitting on the edge of the sofa. You're right, it's better. I feel it blasphemy to what I know these can do but I've wondered if this room just won't work with electrostatics. I'm attaching the specs on the streaming amplifier I have. Early days when buying for these speakers I knew just this amp was a low-end compromise. I'm curious though what specs are lacking (just curious for my own education). And I've googled enough to know the theory of a pre amp, but could you explain the true listening difference?

 

[VideoVic]

Hello Travis. I'm not certain I could adequately explain "preamp theory" with my limited knowledge, mostly gained from reading magazines such as STEREOPHILE and THE ABSOLUTE SOUND, except to say that it is generally agreed among experts that a preamp is your control and connection center and in its singularity, when paired with a separate power amp the combination provides the penultimate audio quality, above that of an integrated amp or receiver.

Now, you might be correct when you say that you don't think your room is suited for electrostatics in that , from what I see in your photos, there are open spaces behind your speakers. The ESL-X are "dipole" speakers and that means that they radiate sound from both the front and rear of the electrostatic panel, and the openings behind the speakers is causing the back wave to not be reflected back towards your listening area. Keeping the door behind the right speaker closed would help some but that large opening behind the left speaker is problematic and your losing most of the reflection that these speakers require to perform to their full ability.

Since you've made a substantial investment in these speakers, I assume you don't want to start over but the only (best) way to make them work in this room would be reverse the seating area and put them where your couch is know and the couch where the speakers are. I realize that is a huge "ask", but with these electrostatics you have to put them where they can utlizie a large flat wall first and find the position that creates a "sweet spot" where the sound "image" is centered between the two speakers. No amount of equipment upgrade will do that for you. It can be done with the preamp/streamer/amp you currently have but it is a matter of speaker position, not electronics.

If you are able to re-position your speakers and take the time to experiment with the distance from the wall, the distance between speakers and "toe-in" until you get that "sweet spot" (and it takes a LOT of time and patience but believe me, you'll know it when you hear it!) , you're wasting money spending it on an equipment upgrade

Without that, I don't think you'll ever be happy with these speakers, and something that offers "direct sound" ala KLIPSCH, or JBL or KEF would work better in your room.

That being said, before you give up try moving the speakers closer together to give them both some back wall to reflect the back wave. I would start at say 6 feet apart, Maybe even 5 or 5-1/2 feet apart. Then listen for a while (days, not hours) and then start moving them further apart at say 6" intervals (3" out per speaker) and listen again. TAKE YOUR TIME. You won't believe the changes you'll hear just by moving theses speakers a few inches. Once you get them to a satisfactory balance, try toe-ing them in a bit. Your owner's manual also has suggestions on how to achieve proper toe-in.

I've owned two pairs of Martin Logans over the last 30 years; the first pair lasted 20 years and were still going strong when I sold them to a friend. I bought the ESL-X's in 2016 and only a few years ago got the sweet spot achieved for the room they are currently in. Don't be discouraged, that's part of the fun (at least to me) of hearing the improvements minor changes make. GOOD LUCK and let me hear from you!

 

[DanR]

This is very good advice from Video Vic. I’ll add a suggestion to it. Before you try switching your speakers and listening positions with each other try this even if just temporarily to see if it makes a noticeable improvement. Move both of your speakers to the right so your left speaker is in front of that wall completely and move the right speaker accordingly AND SHUT THE DOOR behind the right speaker. Your 9’ between the speakers is ok but your 14’ to the couch is too far try moving it up (temporarily) to about 10’ and after you do all that see if there is a marked improvement in the sound. If so it’s obvious what the solution is and if not all the equipment upgrades in the world won’t help fix it. My system (odysseys, krell amp, backert labs preamp, allnic phono pre, rega rp8 table) is set up dimensionally every close to VideoVics. And it took a lot of playing around with sometimes very small moves in the speakers to get it just right. But oh it’s so right!! Hope this helps a little

 

[Fredrik Kansbod]

Hey hey fellas and ladies. I'm Travis. Live in Tennessee. And am chasing the high of my long-ago first experience with electrostatics. I'm probably posting this in the won't section and I do apologize and will change it if directed!

I've hunted through some threads on this and chatted with ML about my questions back in the day, but am still not convinced I'm doing things right or that I'm finding accurate answers. Which basically boil down to: what is the minimum gear to push these speakers, given my room, that will showcase the beauty of electrostatics but not necessarily chase perfection.

Finally bit the bullet a few years back and bought a pair of esl-x. Added an svs sub. The round one, because it's lovely (https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000-pro). Then it came to what am I gonna push it all with. I couldn't afford anywhere near the ideal setup and just wanted something. I felt like the advice I was getting was to spend thousands on gear that should help a bit of the room is right and my audio sources are right and all things in life are perfect.

I slightly jest. Anyway.

I ended up getting a MiniDSP SHD Power (https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-power). Along with svs cables (https://www.svsound.com/products/svs-soundpath-ultra-bi-wire-speaker-cable). And ya that's it. I have used a mic to correct for the room best it can.

I'm attaching photos of my space. I have 9' between speakers, they are 20" off the walls, and there is 14' to the sofa. The paneling behind them is wood acoustic dampening.

I have little smart speakers all throughout the house for everyday background audio. These do push audio for movies and such but have no surrounds and don't care much about them. My favorite evening is a nice sipping tequila and streaming (not Tidal or anything fancy, I couldn't hear the difference, though I blame the setup not the high-def format) jazz. Though 3 glasses in I've been known to move to 90's emo.

My thoughts/suspicions are as follows (and I would love advice). I'm not giving these what they really need. Possible at all. Possibly I'm giving them 70% of what they need but the other 30% isn't worth fighting for with a sub-optimal room. I don't think I have the clarity I should and find myself just turning it louder and louder. Would love some advice on gear!

Hi Travis!
I'm new with electrostats (just bought a pair of used reQuests) and still learning about differences to regular speakers.
What strikes me when I see your pictures (lovely room by the way) is that you have only dampening on the floor (the rug) and the front wall.
I would suggest at least a curtain or framed paintings on the wall behind your couch, more dampening in general, to "diffuse" all sound reflections. Maybee thicker and larger window curtains?
Try before and after by walking around in the room and loudly clap your hands, the lack of dampening will be easily heard.
I'm looking forward to follow your efforts to improve on the sound experience and your findings!

 

[twich54]

Welcome to the group ! Dan and Vic have given you some good suggestions to which I concur. The pics you provided tells a story of a WAF but not one for good sound ! No matter how well you place your speakers, listening with your head that close to a wall behind you is NEVER a good idea. As for the speakers, being di-poles, symmetry with regards to placement and surrounding boundaries is important.

 

[Leporello]

You seem to have plenty of space to work with, fighting with a small room is not your issue. People here can only be of limited help regardless of well known rules of thumb (for example, first I would try to get the speakers as far away from the wall behind them as possible. 20" is far from optimal for almost any dipole speaker). To get the best room placement there is no substitute for trying every feasible placement and comparing. This can take months, but is well worth the trouble. Room modes are complicated, and can't be predicted accurately from a few photographs.

As far as driving electronics, don't even think about it until you have the room placement right. The latter is way more important. Don't forget that if you double you're amplifier power, all other things being equal, you get 3dB more volume, barely audible. That being said, a space as large as yours could benefit from lots of power.

 

[Leporello]

listening with your head that close to a wall behind you is NEVER a good idea.

I completely concur, and from experience (and WAF did play a role in trying that sort of placement in the first place). With any speaker it's a bad idea, but with the coherence of the waves launched from an ESL it's a disaster for imaging. Near reflections from behind are very confusing.

 

[seerabike]

Wow thank you all for the advice! My computer was kaput for a few weeks and this site wasn't letting my phone log in. Different issue...

For the past two weeks I have been closing that door, pulling the speakers onto the rug, and savoring what suddenly became vastly better sound! I don't want to sell these boys so am becoming more comfortable that with movies, sure they stay where they are and they're just fine. But with good audio, I pull them out, push them slightly closer together, and make sure I'm not sitting too far away.

I'm enjoying this setup for now and will be working on new gear at some point, but probably not for a little bit. Thank you all again!

 

[Russr]

Hi. Beautiful room!
A lot of great input has been provided regarded positioning and room treatment. I am not THAT familiar with the ESL-X, but (there's always one of those, right?!) I would seriously consider adding a beefy power amp to the mix. Not about loudness in your room, but just driving the speakers with authority and reproducing your sond as it was intended. It doesn't have t break the bank, either... the second hand market for power amps is typically FULL of great options. My personal go-to's are:
Anthem MCA 20/225/225 Gen 2, and Bryston 4B-ST/4B-SST. Both families of amps are in the 200W+ range, and should set you back between $1K & $2K. THEN your challenge would be fitting it in your room! You couls=d continue using your streaming amp as your source, and take RCA outs to the power amp (assuming you can locate it in close proximity to the Streamer).

Welcome aboard, and enjoy your tunes!