My version of Stage X Beta 1

[MrBT]

After seeing what ML did to new Stage X had no more doubts about original Stage tweeter. There can be an improvement in this field.

Some time of research online and found out that original tweeter is "el cheapo" Vifa for $15 (alsmost the same model) from parts express. While browsing their web page I noticed quite nice looking ribbon and planars tweeters they have for sale. Matching more or less specs of Vifa driver to a new potential upgrade brought Bohlender Graebener Neo3 to my attention. I was almost ready to pull the trigger ($85) and than it striked me! It looks almost the same as my Encore TF tweeter. Well.... it is the same!

So here is the result:


It really cured original Stage from it's harshness and obnoxiousness in upper frequencies.

The question is why on earth ML would wait so long for a "X" and whyh they implemented much better tweeter in their much lower speaker models leaving top of the line Stage with $15 tweeter????
The ATF tweeter (borrowed from my ENCORE) made overal sound character better match to my bigger ML elctrostatics.

If I decide to implement the new tweeter permanently I'll have to come out with some way of nicely mounting the it to the speaker.


Still, STAGE is a major "achilles heel" in my 5.1 system....


P.S. I understand that X has differnent technology tweeter than ATF.

 

[projectormovielover]

Awesome dude, thanks for the info on that cheap sh*t tweeter I have in my Stage. What a bunch of robbers charging 3K, shame on you ML!!!!! I want to get rid of the tweeter in my Stage now so keep us posted

 

[Hocky]

I would think that you would cause a lot of problems just swapping tweeters like that. It probably needs significant crossover changes to be "right." It would be interesting to see some measurements.

 

[MrBT]

I would think that you would cause a lot of problems just swapping tweeters like that. It probably needs significant crossover changes to be "right." It would be interesting to see some measurements.

Both drivers are 4ohm. Vifa range 900-22000. Bohlender Graebener Neo3 is 2000-28000.
Sensitivities differ by 0.5db. Stage crossed at 2700 (at ??octave). Encore crossed at 1700.
I assumed no problems here.

I'll gladly provide a freq sweep measurement with REW later on.

 

[Hocky]

Both drivers are 4ohm. Vifa range 900-22000. Bohlender Graebener Neo3 is 2000-28000.
Sensitivities differ by 0.5db. Stage crossed at 2700 (at ??octave). Encore crossed at 1700.
I assumed no problems here.

I'll gladly provide a freq sweep measurement with REW later on.

Interesting. Post up some measurements if you take some.

 

[squasher100]

When you say better, you mean sounds more balanced? Cleaner? I also have a stage center channel and your option seems very interesting! Thanks.

 

[MrBT]

Close field mesurements (about 15cm). Mic pointed directly at tweeter/panel area (somewhat averaged between panel and tweeter position)

Vifa - blue

Bohlender Graebener Neo3 - red

 

[Hocky]

Definitely less flat. That roll off at the top could be your experience of it being less harsh. A lot more energy 2-9k, though. Maybe it has less distortion and that is the improvement?

 

[MrBT]

Hocky,
Keep in mind that this is close field measurement and propably at listening position I'll get different results (not to mention my potential measurement mistakes - I do not have anechoic chamber). The set of measurements above are probably only to confirm that x-over point is suitable also for the ATF tweeter I'm trying out.

I'll go and measure at listening position......post some new graphs soon

 

[Len44]

This is actually very intriguing stuff. Please keep it going. Thanks to MrBT oft taking the initiative here...

 

[MrBT]

Very close measurement. Mic pointing only at tweeters at 2cm.


From my listening position. Mic pointing up.

 

[jmschnur]

Vertical axis measurements might prove enlightening .


J

 

[JonFo]

Good work there!

Looks like either the original tweeter had a rising response above 15K that is being dampened in the XO, or the BG tweeter is rolled off in that range. Did you compare the factory spec sheet curves of the two?
If similar in the high end, it's most likely the XO dampening.

Although that drop is not bad, most people actually prefer a damped HF.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

Awesome dude, thanks for the info on that cheap sh*t tweeter I have in my Stage. What a bunch of robbers charging 3K, shame on you ML!!!!! I want to get rid of the tweeter in my Stage now so keep us posted

You'd be surprised how many speaker companies use cheap drivers in their expensive speakers (gotta love Vifa and Peerless hehe). Like Swan, it's all Hi-Vi drivers though to be fair they're the same company but Hi-Vi is for the DIY crowd. Anyway that tweeter is $15 for consumers, ML probably gets a wholesale volume discount... Anyway there's more to the speaker then how cheap the drivers are, like research and development.

Back in my car audio days I almost used a pair of those BG Neo 3's in my car. There were a few people on the car DIY forums that had done it. Before I picked up my ML Source one of the speakers that I was thinking about where Acculine (now Arx which uses another kind of planar tweeter, kinda think of ML Motion 10 & 12) that used the BG Neo 3 as well. It does bother me that ML didn't allow the BG Neo 3 in the Encore TF to be rotated 90 degrees when used as a center channel. Acculine/Arx did that for their MTM that could be used as L/C/R. The BG Neo 3 when used upright has a wide horizontal dispersion so in the Encore TF used as a center it turns it into vertical dispersion...

 

[cstory]

I don't know what the age of your stage is, but at one point I was doing some trouble shooting with my Stage and ML sent me a replacement tweeter. The one I removed was a Scanspeak tweeter (forget the part number now but I want to say it was a D2608) and the one I put in as a replacement was a Vifa (now Scanspeak) HDS, which is a well respected tweeter.

Chuck

 

[MrBT]

Vertical axis measurements might prove enlightening .

Do you think about dispersion characteristics of this driver lets say 15ged, 30deg etc?
Could you please elaborate....

Since this is center speaker and always pointing directly at listener I think It wouldn't matter that much.

 

[MrBT]

Good work there!

Looks like either the original tweeter had a rising response above 15K that is being dampened in the XO, or the BG tweeter is rolled off in that range. Did you compare the factory spec sheet curves of the two?
If similar in the high end, it's most likely the XO dampening.

Although that drop is not bad, most people actually prefer a damped HF.

Yes, you're right. Original Vifa tweeter has raising responce twards upper freq and it looks like it's compensated with XO. With BG it starts to roll off at 17kHz. This doesn't bother me much.

 

[MrBT]

after a couple hours of listening with BG I can definietly cofirm that it's better choice than Vifa (at least for my own ears). Stage with BG blends nicely with rest of my speakers. It's enough to plug Vifa to hear Stage "shining" in upper registers.
With BG music coming out of stage is less fatiguing. My ears tells me it's better choice as tweeter for Stage than original dome tweeter.

 

[LoganR]

I was hoping I could revive this thread. I'm in a similar situation with my stage center between a pair of 11a's. My tweeter blew and ML said they stopped selling the oem so I purchased their stage x tweeter hoping I could make the swap and have dirac correct for the differences. I may have to mount the tweeter an inch in front of the normal position which I assume isn't the deal breaker however when taking apart the tweeter I realized I was able to pry out the old tweeter and I can buy a $22 dollar parts express tweeter that should work as an oem and I can glue it back in place... My question is should I expect a bad result from Dirac because from what I can tell the stage x tweeter is closer to 90 sensitivity vs the oem 96 or would the effort pay off for a better experience. I'm very much a noob as far as understanding the complexities of matching speakers. Thanks for any help.

 

[JonFo]

The room corrector will compensate if it is simply a slightly lower sensitivity.

Are the impedances the same? That would matter more, as that might affect the XO response.

The markings on the Vifa seem to indicate 4Ohmn, and the other is clearly marked as 4, so I think you'll be fine but double-check.