ML uses inadequate power cables?

[Nuri58]

One thing which actually can effect things is the frequency. The powerplant is not perfect meamung that the frequency is +/- some percent. This I could be made to believe could be conditioned to +/- some permilles (not by the Whisky but possible the best way ). If that could cause other issue I don't know. About the size of the cables, most housewires are fit for 13A (2.5 mm2) so that again is the limiting factor - a huge powecable will not help much - 1m power cable 1m against 20m wires in the wall...

 

[Leporello]

I tried to prove what I was hearing could be measured, but couldn't.

I heard a demo of IsoAcoustics GAIA footers a couple years ago and was dumbfounded. It took me two years to try their returnable footers, which I did try in April of this year. I measured with the spikes that came with the 13A, then installed the GAIA footers, listened, heard a better soundstage, then measured and saw no meaningful difference that could be anything but run to run differences. So I thought I must be dreaming, so I reinstalled the spikes and the soundstage sounded like it did before with the spikes, measured again, no real difference, then reinstalled the GAIA footers, better soundstage again but isn't measurable.

So, there was a difference, which I enjoy, so I call that an improvement, but it's not something I know how to measure. So it must just be psychoacoustics at play. Whatever. If the GAIA footers provided no improvement, but also no degradation, I would keep them just for the looks and the ease of moving the speakers which allows me to test more without fear of damaging my floor. But since there's an "improvement" that I enjoy, that's just a nice bonus.

I'm of the opinion that so long as a power cord is correctly sized for the Current required by a device, then that's all that is needed. But, I actually do go further with it and decided to make all my power cords with 12AWG wire and plugs for anything that amplifies. All 7 circuits for my AV stuff are 20A, as are the receptacles, so I figure why not make the cords to the same spec?

Re OFC wire, it doesn't take much searching to find the industries that need OFC wiring and why, which is largely due to limiting chemical reactions and not due to electrical needs.

I put my CLS II's on Sound Anchor stands designed for them and it made a huge difference in clarity and imaging. On the one hand, there is no measurement I know of that can usefully quantify such a change, but on the other, putting speakers on stands is a definite change in the mechanical-acoustical system (optimal height plus better mechanical isolation). The same cannot be said for boutique line cords.

The concept of oxygen free copper is scientifically valid. Ohmic resistance results from interactions between lattice vibrations at temperatures above absolute zero, (superconductivity is a separate phenomenon, which occurs in some materials), and faults in the lattice structure such as impurities. The kicker is that copper doesn't stay oxygen free on its own. Copper really likes oxygen. Also, we're not talking a resistance difference of a typical line cord you could measure with a typical multimeter. Bottom line, if someone sells you a cable they claim is oxygen free, you just have to take their word for it.

 

[Robert D]

I put my CLS II's on Sound Anchor stands designed for them and it made a huge difference in clarity and imaging. On the one hand, there is no measurement I know of that can usefully quantify such a change, but on the other, putting speakers on stands is a definite change in the mechanical-acoustical system (optimal height plus better mechanical isolation). The same cannot be said for boutique line cords.

The concept of oxygen free copper is scientifically valid. Ohmic resistance results from interactions between lattice vibrations at temperatures above absolute zero, (superconductivity is a separate phenomenon, which occurs in some materials), and faults in the lattice structure such as impurities. The kicker is that copper doesn't stay oxygen free on its own. Copper really likes oxygen. Also, we're not talking a resistance difference of a typical line cord you could measure with a typical multimeter. Bottom line, if someone sells you a cable they claim is oxygen free, you just have to take their word for it.

I've always wondered about how copper can be oxygen free. Once copper is exposed to the air, won't it take on oxygen and become oxidized some on the outside? Is the inside of a cable truly air tight, so as to keep it oxygen free?

I do know if I take an old speaker cable and cut off the end, the inner copper is nice and bright. The copper on the end of the wire is well oxidized because it's exposed to the air. Even if the cable is oxygen free on the inside, it's certainly not on the terminal ends.

 

[Nuri58]

No metal is 100% pure. There will always be impurities. But 99.95% pure cupper sounds and is very close. However, the conductivity is greatly impacted. Even such little impurity may reduce conductivity by more than 10%. So one may wich to opt for 99.999% which comes at a high price mark. But if you double the area I'd think it would do the same trick. Maybe it destores the signal so it has an importance. Again the cables from any connector is likely down to 99.95% and so is the wiring in the house.

 

[whtloh]

But 99.95% pure copper sounds and is very close. However, the conductivity is greatly impacted. Even such little impurity may reduce conductivity by more than 10%.

Is there any evidence for this? Should be easy enough to measure. Otherwise, it sounds like hype from cable manufacturers.

 

[Russr]

It seems that we're overlooking the fact that equipment designers and manufacturers all have to allow for tolerances in consistency of power supply, speaker loads presented, etc.

Amp power supplies are (generally) beefy components, built to handle residential power supplies and provide consistent power to the various components within the amp itself. So protect them from spikes, brown-outs, nasties, etc. - absolutely. Feed them pure sinewave over platinum-plated schtuff.. not for me!

 

[audioxcel]

To everyone who doesn't believe that changing the last 6 feet of wire before a component can possibly change how a piece of audio equipment sounds, try this simple test. Make a cable from 12 Ga off the shelf Romex solid core wire. or 14 Ga if on a 15 amp circuit. Also, make a cable using 12 Ga OFC (doesn't have to be 6N Single Crystal Copper) twisted braid wire. Use cheapest hardware store connectors that aren't jiggly. Compare the sound of these to the sound using the power cord that came with the equipment. It won't cost you much and the results will depend on what component the cords are used with. If you hear no difference, so be it. If you do, at least you can consider whether it is worth trying an after market power cable that costs more.


Would I pay $5K for a power cord... no but I would pay $300 for a cord for my CD player or preamp and my amp too. As I have said, I don't know it changing the cords on my ML speakers will make a big difference but I do know it does with other components.

 

[audioxcel]

I've always wondered about how copper can be oxygen free. Once copper is exposed to the air, won't it take on oxygen and become oxidized some on the outside? Is the inside of a cable truly air tight, so as to keep it oxygen free?

I do know if I take an old speaker cable and cut off the end, the inner copper is nice and bright. The copper on the end of the wire is well oxidized because it's exposed to the air. Even if the cable is oxygen free on the inside, it's certainly not on the terminal ends.

Which is why it is worth redoing any non-soldered terminal ends of your cable every few years.

 

[Nuri58]

Is there any evidence for this? Should be easy enough to measure. Otherwise, it sounds like hype from cable manufacturers.

Yes, nothing and you can google and will find long scientific articles explaining the reductions. Ant this dies not surprice me. But then if you increase the the cablesize to double square I'd say what's the problem? But introducing a super cable between your amp and socket compared to what's going on from the socket to the plant .... would that mean anything?

 

[Brad225]

Oh no not again.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Giddy up horsie!... now that looks like one dead horse.

Mmm... time to listen to some fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

 

[audioxcel]

Yes, nothing and you can google and will find long scientific articles explaining the reductions. Ant this dies not surprice me. But then if you increase the the cablesize to double square I'd say what's the problem? But introducing a super cable between your amp and socket compared to what's going on from the socket to the plant .... would that mean anything?

Only about as much as removing all of the fecal matter from the water taken from a swimming pool before deinking it.

 

[Leporello]

Oh no not again.

Professor G.H. Dorr:
And what; to flog a horse, that if not dead is at this point in mortal danger of expiring, does this little square represent?

 

[Brad225]

Professor G.H. Dorr:
And what; to flog a horse, that if not dead is at this point in mortal danger of expiring, does this little square represent?

Yes Leoprello, this horse has been beat to death so many times i'm surprised there are any left on the earth.

If someone thinks they have a bad cable, try something better. If someone doesn't think they hear a difference, good for them, they saved some money.

The process, of one person telling another person what they can and can't hear with the cables they use is amusing, bordering on the absurd.
I bought better cables for my 4 subs as I wanted them to all look the same. Did I hear a difference, nope, but it's my system and I'm the only one that matters.

I read cable threads and laugh to my self, how vehement people get with others.

Many audiophiles right or wrong, want the cable they want and are going to abandon the original. I believe manufacturers do offer a decent cable with products, though many are going to replace them anyway. As someone else said, there is no point in raising the price of a product by offering something that may not be used.

At one time ML went to Shunyata to have a PC made for their speakers. There was never a price level that could be worked out.

Happy Cabling

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one mate, well said!
Now, let's all sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

 

[audioxcel]

Only about as much as removing all of the fecal matter from the water taken from a swimming pool before deinking it.

drinking

 

[ejspain]

In the owner's manual for my 13a's, it suggests that I upgrade my power cable. Doesn't that seem wrong?

You just spent $18,000 and they're telling you the included power cable isn't good enough ???

Just had a nice little chat with Martin Logan and they basically they said, "people are flooding our inbox about this power cord nonsense (nonsense - my words), and the assumed inefficiency of the supplied cable with the Masterpiece Series". SO KEEP YOUR SHIRT ON....or take it off if it makes you feel better !!!! From ML, "When you purchase any of our speakers; including the Motion Series, they are shipped with everything necessary to achieve peak performance. Of course, excluding the tweaks (can't put that in the box)". That said, ML DOES NOT recommend replacing the supplied power cord with an after-market (or assumed higher quality) cable HOWEVER (ALL CAPS - my words) if you swear it'll take your ML to outer space, have at it. Happy Listening

 

[GW1800]

I lot of the discussion has to do with cost. The better the power cable and SC the better your system will sound. Many never even try to upgrade some do and glad they did.

 

[amey01]

I lot of the discussion has to do with cost.

Cost is 0% of the argument.

The true argument is the lost opportunity cost, as a result of spending money on power cables which consequently precludes / marginalises / compromises real upgrades.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

That's why it is so important to get the balance right. For example, there's simply no sense in spending 10grand on gear and 40grand on accessories...and I've come across a few the other way round as well.

Reviewers will highly recommend all sorts of gear and accessories that sound fabulous! However, in such systems on review, there are far too many variables at play...and not one system is ever identical. Heck, even the AC mains from locations is a variable. What kind of grounding are they using, power distribution and so on.

Putting together any quality system is an Art form, and it takes years! Therefore, in terms of cables and accessories, I always insist on home trials for at least 2 - 3 weeks. At least within this time frame I'm able to determine if it meets my personal benchmark of performance improvement. That benchmark is 40%. This is quite a high percentage point for deciding on whether or not the upgrade is worth. In most cases it's no where near 40%, only marginal.

On other evaluations, where the item/s have met and exceeded my benchmark, I find them to be superior. However, I don't believe in the latest being the greatest, and sometimes a change or upgrade isn't an overall improvement either. At times it can go side ways. There was a time where I ventured off Conrad johnson gear and went for much larger amplifiers with high power. Although they were very powerful and could drive anything, they lacked musicality and finesse altogether, it was just brute force. These brands were also highly reviewed but didn't meet my expectations in my particular system at the time.

On other occasions, the gear or accessories I've tried have been clearly superior and so is the associated cost. That has to be assessed whether or not I can afford it, without having to lose power in the household! If the top of the line seems to far to reach and requires exhorbitant spend then I would consider the next model down. If that works out to be far better then I usually close on that. At the same time keeping an eye on the other item and when ready I can certainly engage in a deal.

In most cases, the latest always runs a limited lifespan and then it's surpassed, that's business. I've always found the right time to engage is when it was just surpassed... goes for good value!

Just my 50cts worth. Cheers,
RJ