ML & digital amps.

[liffy99]

TACT / Lyngdorf with Prodigys

Just hooked this combo up last night and initial impressions are very good.
Plenty of volume available (200W / channel into 8 ohms) and clarity just as good as my previous electrostatics. Bass extremely detailed and well controlled (I thought this would be the weak spot in my room but the combination of Force Forward and digital control has worked wonders).

Possible tweakery;

Add a SDA 2175 to bi-amp the Prodigys (anyone done this with Tact / Lyngdorf ?). Not sure whether this would make an awful lot of difference - I wish I could bypass the internal ML passive crossover.

Use the Lyngdorf to add a 2db or so lift to the high treble (not so much lacking - just doesn't quite seem to have the top end sparkle of my Audiostatics).

Tilt the Prodigys back a little - the stereo impage doesn't seem quite as tall as before - vocalists hover at about the 1m high level but I would prefer them a bit higher up).

Start trying different speaker cables (mine are home made but I haven't heard anything better under $50/m).

Early days . . . .

System
Denon 2900 Universal player (PC based server under way with Squeezebox or Sonos)
Lyngdorf TDA2200+ (without room correction)
ML Prodigys
VdH interconnects, home made speaker cable

By the way, I'm in the UK.

 

[liffy99]

Lyngdorf 2200 and Prodigies

Wow

Angled the speakers back a little by placing 1cm thick wooden blocks under the front feet. Imaging now lifted a good 6-9" higher - well worthwhile and just what I wanted. So once I fine tune the positioning and add the spikes I'll take this into account.

No longer need to think about adding treble lift with the Lyngdorf's inbuilt parametric equaliser. I vacuumed the panels and the sparkle is now defintely there ! I never thought that a tiny amount of dust could make so much difference.

So great improvements made without difficulty. Now to get on with other things . . .

 

[TheBobGoat]

Anyone know about the Bel Canto s300 or the PS Audio Trio A-100?

They are two amps I was looking at -- I found pretty much all I could via searching online for articles and what people on the board had in their systems.

It seems that a bunch of people have PS Audio power supplies, but not amps - and some have said the older Bel Canto stuff was good, but this design is pretty new.

I was planning on checking them both out to see what I like, but if anyone has an opinion or first hand experience, that would be awesome

BG

 

[lugano]

It seems that a bunch of people have PS Audio power supplies, but not amps -

I owned a PS Audio HCA-2 and was very happy with it, but then I've sold it, together with my Brinkmann pre, and got a PS Audio "integrated" GCC-250. This move gave me more power, a shorter signal path, the ability to forget about the low impedance problems of the CLS II, a remote and much more.

In my system, and after a long break-in (300+ hours), it sounds FANTASTIC.

It seems that during the CES the guys from Von Schweikert were left without an amplifier to power their $25K speakers - they borrowed a trio C-100 from PS Audio and it blew their socks off... people kept on coming from there to the PS Audio booth

Important: You can test their gear for a month, then return it if you dislike it, no questions asked.

(and the less funny part is that I am not at all fond of their power products).

 

[Zero]

Most of my class-D experience rests almost entirely with the marriage of dynamic loudspeakers. In short;

I jumped on a few class D products when it first begun making waves a few years ago. Even to my non-golden ears it became very clear that this is where audio was heading. Even inexpensive pieces such as the Teac A700 amplifier, or the Sony S-50ES all-in-one-receiver – pieces that were never built with the audiophile even in mind – performed heads and heels above many traditional and highly regarded electronics that carried a much higher price-tag. Clean sound, extremely efficient (read – friendly on the environment/your power bill), typically runs very cool and can be placed in very unassuming enclosures and can usually handle 4ohm loads without a fuss provided the power supply is sufficient enough.

For those that love it clean, clear, transparent, loud, and dynamic – class D may be their huckleberry. Most pieces carry high damping factors that can really get woofers to move. While I certainly appreciate a lot of class D amplifiers I’ve heard, and constantly recommend them to people on extreme budgets – there are drawbacks.

To these ears, most topologies I come across, for everything they are, lack a certain sense of palpability. It is like gaining insight into the recording, vice acting as a window into the music. Their sound, on the right recordings and on the right electronics, can be a delight! There’s no questioning that. However, by and large I find that most of the times they lack a certain “whole”. The gains you reap in accuracy and power for the dollar seems to come at the expense of the emotional experience. Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule, some more elevated than others.

I would certainly be interested in hearing some of the better class D amplifiers I’ve owned with the Logan’s I’ve become familiar with (the Prodigy’s in particular). The match would be interesting to say the least.

While this thread exists; I will put in a good plug for my friend Henry Ho over at H2O Audio. A brilliant designer that created a “low powered” 100 wpc Ice-based amp. Built like a damned tank with two huge dual mono power supplies with 200uf capacitance per channel. The retail is a cool 2g. It is easily the best iteration of Ice-Power I’ve heard to date. The best part is, he will let you have a free (yes, that’s no money down) in-home trail period. All you’ve got to do is ask – the only risk you run is shipping costs to and from.

Cheers

 

[Thai]

What do you guys think of the Rotel-1077 amp...making 100 watts x 7 channels. There is no ratings for it on Rotel website for 2-ohm and 4-ohm stability. However, reviews show that it can handle it. It is very small and lightweight...my only concern is that it is only 100 watts/channel.

The 2nd problem is that this amp is $2500...i could get a 200w Sunfire amp for that amount.

 

[lugano]

What do you guys think of the Rotel-1077 amp...making 100 watts x 7 channels.

OK, this evening I'll let the cat out of the sack... I've never spoke against Rotels in all my 400+ posts. But I can't take it no more. Rotels and Martin Logans don't work together. Rotels are cheap, metallic sound, in the worst japanese tradition of the 80's. All SS and no soul, just IC's, capacitors and resistors, a (very) poor's man Krell. Now ban me, at least I feel refreshed.

 

[lugano]

For those that love it clean, clear, transparent, loud, and dynamic – class D may be their huckleberry. Most pieces carry high damping factors that can really get woofers to move.

my GCC-250 has a damping factor that exceeds 1000. Over here in Switzerland, it retails for about $6000, almost 3 times what it costs in the US. But I got one nevertheless. And yes, I love it clean, transparent and dynamic, that's what I most appreciate about ML's, and I won't brake them with Rotels or tubes. Nuff said.

 

[Zero]

Thai,

It is typically not in my policy to down any companies product. Usually, its just bad taste - and bad business. But I can't keep polite about this one. Rotel's Class-D is perhaps one of the single worst sounding amplifiers that company has ever built. In fact, it very may well be one of the worst sounding class-D amps, period.

I guess you could say I'm breaking a bit of my own policy here; I always encourage people to try something out for themselves before I dish out any information. I also try to dance carefully around making any conclusive comments.. but as open minded and even balanced as I try to be; Those Rotel's suck.. theres no other polite way to put it.

However, I am not nearly as critical on Rotel's other equipment as Lugano is. The 1072 is a fantastic red-book cd player - It is simply an exceptional value for what it is. Great DACs, Great Transport, Incredibly silent operation, reliable, and moreover... great sound (that leans more towards the dark side of things).

The 1090 amplifier is also a solid piece of electronics. I've never heard it embarassed next to the likes of Rogue / Krell / Levinson / Anthem / Musical Fidelity / DK Design / Naim. You get what you pay for, and on the used market... its a great deal if you have difficult-to-drive speakers.

As for Martin Logan. Well, I'm a far cry from being the gurus you here are... but I personally enjoyed their sound the most when complemented with immensely powerful tube amps, or .. my personal favorite ... well-built Class-A amplifiers! I guess I'm just a sucker for that lush sound...

oh Geeeeeez - only 10 posts and I've already opened my mouth. I swear I'm a nice guy fella's.. truly I am!

 

[Pcar928fan]

OK, this evening I'll let the cat out of the sack... I've never spoke against Rotels in all my 400+ posts. But I can't take it no more. Rotels and Martin Logans don't work together. Rotels are cheap, metallic sound, in the worst japanese tradition of the 80's. All SS and no soul, just IC's, capacitors and resistors, a (very) poor's man Krell. Now ban me, at least I feel refreshed.

NICE! Come on over from Switzerland and I'll let you (make you) eat my Rotel amps! What is your problem??? Maybe you should say, the Rotel gear you have heard with the speakers you have heard it with did not work FOR YOUR EARS! To make a blanket statment like that will just get you in trouble... You are already in trouble with me... I won't be reading your posts anymore or putting any value in anything you say...

 

[Pcar928fan]

It is typically not in my policy to down any companies product. Usually, its just bad taste - and bad business. But I can't keep polite about this one. Rotel's Class-D is perhaps one of the single worst sounding amplifiers that company has ever built. In fact, it very may well be one of the worst sounding class-D amps, period.

However, I am not nearly as critical on Rotel's other equipment as Lugano is. The 1072 is a fantastic red-book cd player - It is simply an exceptional value for what it is. Great DACs, Great Transport, Incredibly silent operation, reliable, and moreover... great sound (that leans more towards the dark side of things).

The 1090 amplifier is also a solid piece of electronics. I've never heard it embarassed next to the likes of Rogue / Krell / Levinson / Anthem / Musical Fidelity / DK Design / Naim. You get what you pay for, and on the used market... its a great deal if you have difficult-to-drive speakers.

If you read TAS and Stereophile magazines those guys dislike and almost HATE ALL Class D amps. I have not listened to them to see if I can hear a difference, but they were all pretty well panned and these guys were listening to $5000/pr monoblocks...some of them were more than that!

Their point was you could get good Class A/AB amps that gave as much or more power and sounded better for the same money...

YMMV!

 

[Thai]

Isn't Sunfire amps Class-D??

 

[Zero]

Pcar,

TAS actually labeled the NuForce 9.02 amp of the year..., and If I'm not mistake I believe the NuForce 9SE won last years award.

Stereophile has also had a few good things to say about some Bel Canto Evo units and PS Audio's.

Still, I get your point. I've read the commentary that has ranged anywhere from negative to outright bashing (much like my above comments on the Rotel class D's haha)...

Regardless, I like a lot of class D amplifiers I've heard. And at the end of the day - I could care less about what it takes for me to 'get there', so long as I do.

 

[tonyc]

OK, this evening I'll let the cat out of the sack... I've never spoke against Rotels in all my 400+ posts. But I can't take it no more. Rotels and Martin Logans don't work together. Rotels are cheap, metallic sound, in the worst japanese tradition of the 80's. All SS and no soul, just IC's, capacitors and resistors, a (very) poor's man Krell. Now ban me, at least I feel refreshed.

Don't mince words-tell us how you really feel!

 

[TheBobGoat]

I revived a thread and killed a relationship all in one post. anyway, thanks for the info so far guys. I just ordered both and will let you know what I think! (in a few days...the Trio will be here tomorrow, the Bel Canto on Monday)

 

[Charliemike]

OK, this evening I'll let the cat out of the sack... I've never spoke against Rotels in all my 400+ posts. But I can't take it no more. Rotels and Martin Logans don't work together. Rotels are cheap, metallic sound, in the worst japanese tradition of the 80's. All SS and no soul, just IC's, capacitors and resistors, a (very) poor's man Krell. Now ban me, at least I feel refreshed.

Way to wait until after I buy a Rotel to mention this

You're SO FIRED!

 

[HsvToolFool]

Having audtioned a high-end class D a few years ago
(which I can't recall the name unfotunately), I'm extremely
excited about this technology. It's de-facto for subs, and
probably the future of full bandwith amps.

But class D needs another half-decade (or more) to mature
and really compete with true class-A tubes and transistors
from Krell, Levison, ARC, BAT, Bryston, etc. Class D still
cedes the last 5% of subtle refinements which old-school
stereo fanatics like me obsess about.

 

[ralflar]

James, I dislike your response more than lugano's post which prompted it. PM sent.

 

[Pcar928fan]

TAS actually labeled the NuForce 9.02 amp of the year..., and If I'm not mistake I believe the NuForce 9SE won last years award.

Still, I get your point. I've read the commentary that has ranged anywhere from negative to outright bashing (much like my above comments on the Rotel class D's haha)...

Regardless, I like a lot of class D amplifiers I've heard. And at the end of the day - I could care less about what it takes for me to 'get there', so long as I do.

I think I did read that but didn't realize it was a Class D amp. I don't know that I have personally ever heard one other than that is probably what powers the Descent sub I have, but I don't think I have heard one with a full range speaker so I don't have any idea how they differ from "regular" amps.

I like the size and lack of heat production though! That is COOL!

 

[Pcar928fan]

James, I dislike your response more than lugano's post which prompted it. PM sent.

Don't really care...thanks for adding to the fun!