martin logans' decline

[babydoc]

Everything old is new again!

It seems that martin logan is now a name that is more associated with the home theatre crowd, than the two channel crowd. Let's face the facts, ML speakers are not made the same as they were before. They are just not that good anymore. A pair of odesseys will trump a pair of vantages or summits in 2 channel mode. The new logans are a disgrace to the older ones.

I have migrated through several M-L generations, most recently going from Ascents to Summits to CLXs. Each newer speaker was audibly better than its predecessor and I had the opportunity to A-B them side by side with the same electronics. The build quality certainly has not suffered and in fact, I found the Summits to be better in this respect than the Ascents.
To correct an impression of what constitutes the "home theater crowd," there are different levels of home theater ranging from home theater in a box (HTIB) to high end separates. The upper end of the M-L range is capable of creating an impressive home theater system. I have done this in my System (#308) with CLXs, Stage, Descent-i's, and Script-i's). I am certain that other members of the M-L owners group have rendered similar configurations involving higher end M-L speakers in their HTs. There is room for peaceful coexistence between the "home theater crowd" (which is really several very different groups) and the "two channel crowd" (ditto).

 

[JRace]

I respect your opinion TIMM.We see the 2 sides completely differantly.I look as a speaker purchase as a investment.I am investing my money with the notion that I can buy replacement parts to continue to enjoy them for far longer than 5 years.Gayle Sanders would never of allowed this to happen if he was still in charge.I am a union employee and look at loyalty in a far differant manner.If my fellow workers are laid off,I would never volunteer to work overtime.IMO I would be spitting in their faces if I did.I respect you and your opinion but I do completely disagree.

Did Gayle Sanders sell the company, or did Shoreview do a hostile take over?

So if your fellow workers were fired as a cost-saving measure, would you quit your job? Or would you keep on working?

 

[wallacefl]

replacement parts / panels are necessary for continued loyalty...I plan to buy the Summit X or it's replacement when I retire to a smaller space that won't work for my CLSz...but if I could not buy replacements if my CLS went south...no more Martin Logans in my house.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
Martin Logan was Privately Held so there was certainly no Hostile Takeover.
From all reports I have read, Co Founder Gayle Sanders wanted to move to California with his Family and no longer wanted to be involved in day to day Operations. Regardless, Gayle Sanders was involved in the conception in the Summit for sure and I am pretty sure the Vantage as well. Thus the original statement in this post really does not have merit.

All of this being said, I certainly did not think that ShoreView would move production of the Vantage, Spire, Summit X, and CLX away from Kansas or the Country. I honestly thought that the more expensive ESL Models Construction would always remain in Kansas.

The turgid situation about what Legacy Models will continue to be supported only adds to the uncertainty of the general direction.

However, the current ESL Models are a continuation of decisions made by Gayle Sanders and not by some cost cutting committee. I remember well Gayle boasting that the size of the Summit's Cabinet was about the same as a Case of Wine yet was capable of almost full range reproduction.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[2beornot2bop]

Goodness Brad,

After all the time and effort you've put into the CLS rebuild you have the desire to listen to Vista's?

Perhaps you've one too many pairs of speakers and you'd be better off selling those FAB CLS's to me...we'll it was just a thought!

Jed,
This is your post from Oct. 2009. Were you wrong then or are you wrong now?

Quote:
To my great surprise and happiness all this has changed since adding a Pass Labs X250 into my system. No longer need the subs to get really good bass. Man this amp really makes my vistas sing. THANKS GUYS>

 

[2beornot2bop]

Would you feel the same if your panels were discontinued tomorrow? That is one of the reasons that has gotten the ball rolling.It is compounded by the fact that arguably a man as popular or more than Gayle Sanders himself, by the name of Jim Powers was thrown aside like nothing.Maybe you or other people do not consider loyalty as important as many of us do.I have always purchased ML speakers knowing that I would be able to get parts if needed.I would argue that many of the newer designs were already developed before Shoreview took over the helm.I would be curious to know how Mr. Sanders himself feels about the direction that his company has gone.

Are you so certain Jim was "thrown aside?"

I was under the impression that ML's plan to move production facilities to CANADA were behind Jim's decision to leave the company. And for the record, I'm not speculating here, it's from a valid source.

 

[2beornot2bop]

There has been no indication that they are expanding their R&D department. All indications are that they are cutting staff at the Kansas facility. The R&D department is being asked to create entirely new lines of lower end speakers. It takes an awful lot of R&D time to come up with an entirely new speaker from the ground up. Much less whole lines of them. There are only so many R&D staff and they only work so many hours in a day. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the more time they spend designing and building home theater speakers, the less time that is available for them to put into the higher end lines. And it isn't like they are developing new technologies for the home theater speakers that will "trickle up" to the higher end products.

Perhaps they will be able to diversify into the lower end while still designing new high quality speakers at the higher end and advancing the state of the art of electrostatic speaker design. But personally I have my doubts. We will have to wait four to five years to really find out the answer to this question. It takes a while for these sorts of decisions to shake themselves out and to develop new products. A lot depends on who stays and who leaves (or is kicked out the door) during this volatile time. I wonder how long until Joe Vojtko is gone?

Well, perhaps the corporate decision to move production facilities to Canada will now allow them to have the resources to spend more on R&D. It was suggested a smaller staff will remain active in CO. What level of that staffs involvement remains to be seen. Canada lures many US companies with incentives, so it's no surprise ML has chosen to take production north of the border. My only concern is what effect their move to Canada will have on shipping a pair of replacement panels to the US. UPS-FedEx charge outrageous rates to ship anything north of the border. I live in Seattle, and Vancouver, B.C. is only a 2 hour drive for me. I recently sold a BAT VK300 integrated to an audiophile in Vancouver. Shipping estimates for a 55 pound amp to Vancouver were $400, simply because you've got to pay an international shipping rate! I grabbed my passport, loaded the amp up and delivered it to the guy for less than he could have had it delivered. Although, I didn't plan on coming home with gear I couldn't resist coming home with a T200 he had that was mint, so it worked out for both of us.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Are you so certain Jim was "thrown aside?"

I was under the impression that ML's plan to move production facilities to CANADA were behind Jim's decision to leave the company. And for the record, I'm not speculating here, it's from a valid source.

All indications are that Jim was "thrown aside".

Regarding your valid source, I suspect he or she may be otherwise or is being fed misinformation.

GG

 

[Brad225]

Goodness Brad,

After all the time and effort you've put into the CLS rebuild you have the desire to listen to Vista's?

Perhaps you've one too many pairs of speakers and you'd be better off selling those FAB CLS's to me...we'll it was just a thought!

My comment and Jed's quote was about the inconsistency of Jed's comments and postings. I don't have Vista's, but would be happy to listen to them if I did.

 

[2beornot2bop]

One thing about the panels being smaller is that the have smaller holes and are able to produce more sound than an older pannel of similar size

If martin logan didnt do home theatre then they wouldn't be very good money maker .Besides HT is where its at these days, if it wasnt for HT then I would never have introduced myself into this hobby . HT is basically gona keep 2CH advancing forward and food on the table for audio brandmakers

Jed my advise to you would be not to post ,sell your logans to me for $50 then go buy yourself a huge pair of cerwin vega and stick a concert video on your vcr and play it real loud to drown out the voices in your head

I'd have liked the opportunity to read Jed's post before it was removed.
Jed's not the only ML owner to feel that way about the newer generation of ML product. What fuels the negative theories surrounding the current generation of smaller products is the infusion of cheap chinese product into the former stellar ML brand name. IMHO, thats now been tainted to put it mildly. Everything about this spells corporate takeover, and the only concern we have is about our bottom line, hence we're now moving to Canada and yadda x 3.

If that's progress, perhaps the company is progressing in the opposite direction from where those that actually have supported the company would prefer to see it go. That's all Jed was likely saying.

Is this place always so hostile if someone doesn't agree with your opinion? They're like ***holes remember, ev1 has one.

 

[2beornot2bop]

My comment and Jed's quote was about the inconsistency of Jed's comments and postings. I don't have Vista's, but would be happy to listen to them if I did.

So is that a no, the CLS's are not for sale?:ROFL:

 

[2beornot2bop]

All indications are that Jim was "thrown aside".

Regarding your valid source, I suspect he or she may be otherwise or is being fed misinformation.

GG

No, the valid source I was referring to was the fact that ML was moving production to Canada, not whether JP was axed. But even if that was the case he appeared in good spirits during our conversation last week.

 

[2beornot2bop]

Would you feel the same if your panels were discontinued tomorrow? That is one of the reasons that has gotten the ball rolling.It is compounded by the fact that arguably a man as popular or more than Gayle Sanders himself, by the name of Jim Powers was thrown aside like nothing.Maybe you or other people do not consider loyalty as important as many of us do.I have always purchased ML speakers knowing that I would be able to get parts if needed.I would argue that many of the newer designs were already developed before Shoreview took over the helm.I would be curious to know how Mr. Sanders himself feels about the direction that his company has gone.

The thought of not being able to get replacement panels for a 1 of 6 CLS frames produced in Cherrywood isn't something I'd care to entertain. But, reality is, everything in life has an expiration date. Job, relationships, gear, everything. The day I began to accept that fact of life is the day I began to learn how to live in the moment and enjoy it without any future expectations about what tomorrow will bring. As it's written, no expectations, no broken hearts. Ohmmmmmmmmmm :bowdown:

 

[Double D]

I dunno what to make of all this.. some of you seem to think that by consolidating some aspects of production to a highly efficient state of the art facility in Canada, that it spells the end of the brand WTF??
Shoreview is probably taking steps to ensure continuance of the brand, and YES ultimately it will probably mean cranking out cheaper HT centric product (Motion anyone ??) but realistically, the sales of upper market products like Spire, Summit, and CLX are so marginal to the profits, that it would be very difficult for them to continue exclusively on those products in the current market.
I think that ML has done a GREAT job of providing support for discontinued products over the years... how many other brands still can provide drivers for 20 year old speakers ???
If some older models fail to have continued support in terms of replacement panels, well.. it's a fact of life... deal with it, audio isn't blessed by some special deity that guarantees perpetual support forever.
As for JP being sacked, axed, or gently parted out with ML corporate, that deal is exclusively between HIM and Corporate. We have NO idea what the terms are, and he probably had to sign a non-disclosure document related to his separation terms. He may even have been paid to not work for a competitive firm for a year or more .. these things happen.. as "2beornot2bop" said the sooner we accept these things, and move on, the better equipped we become to manage our own lives and not expect others to be responsible for us.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I'd have liked the opportunity to read Jed's post before it was removed.

Hi 2B,

If I recall Jed's thread correctly and it is the one you are referring to, that being that the new panels / speakers are not musical and ML has given into the WAF factor, many, including myself, disagreed with the basic premise of the thread.

I believe I stated that Jed's position was self serving, had no basis in fact, and seemed to be posted to antagonize members of this forum. A shot across the bow, if you will, intended merely for shock value, with no substance to back up his claims.

I didn't realize it was deleted but it doesn't surprise me if it was.

Any reasonable person who has lived with the legacy models and the new gen models knows they have their individual strengths and weaknesses but all of them are musical in their own unique way.

It's all in the details.

GG

 

[cyclone]

I think that ML has done a GREAT job of providing support for discontinued products over the years... how many other brands still can provide drivers for 20 year old speakers ???
If some older models fail to have continued support in terms of replacement panels, well.. it's a fact of life... deal with it, audio isn't blessed by some special deity that guarantees perpetual support forever.

The continued support of older products and customer service people like Jim Power makes Martin Logan special. If they choose to start doing things differently the way a lot of people will "deal with it" will be to change brands of speakers.

 

[wallacefl]

The continued support of older products and customer service people like Jim Power makes Martin Logan special. If they choose to start doing things differently the way a lot of people will "deal with it" will be to change brands of speakers.

High end is trust and reputation...when the CLS was first introduced it had '"panel" problems that lead to a lot of warranty replacements. The company stepped up to the plate and did the right thing. If you intend to play in the high end world (CLX)...you need to be a responsive company and if you are not your customers will flock to the competition without looking back. This is my 2nd pair of ML's...and I hope not my last...

 

[Horchem1972]

The thought of not being able to get replacement panels for a 1 of 6 CLS frames produced in Cherrywood isn't something I'd care to entertain. But, reality is, everything in life has an expiration date. Job, relationships, gear, everything. The day I began to accept that fact of life is the day I began to learn how to live in the moment and enjoy it without any future expectations about what tomorrow will bring. As it's written, no expectations, no broken hearts. Ohmmmmmmmmmm :bowdown:

Many people build their system around their speakers.Whether you admit it or not one amp may sound great with your speakers and differant with another.People on this forum spend thousands of dollars to achieve that combination they are listening for.If panels are no longer available they are worthless.Panels are not the same as a discontinued driver.If you are forced to switch speakers your system will sound differant.If you think the CLS or other legacy products sound like the Summit's you are crazy.Which one sounds better is ones perception of sound.I personally prefer the CLS and Monolith's to the newer line.The soundstage cannot be matched by the smaller panels IMO.

 

[BadaBing11]

I gotta be honest. I'm getting a bit sick of some of this junk. Last I checked - nobody's speakers started to suck over the past several weeks. Gordons summits still sound awesome as do my Odysseys A lot of people here are jumping to bs conclusions because of changes in the company. nobody has come up with any evidence thar r & d is changing or that there is going to be less emphasis on high end speaker development. R&d is the key element for freaks like us. We don't care about profit or marketing. If ml wants to continue to expand into lower markets SO WHAT!! If r&d continues to improve and that creates a summit Z tell me why I should care if they also have an affordable home theater option

Yeah Timm, and my Ascents still kill. Besides driving sales volume is a good thing. It = mo money fo ML and that could = more R&D funds to put the first stat on the moon. Where I live, high end shops are closing down left and right. For a company to survive they need to offer a product that can appeal to the masses at a reasonable price. That does not mean they automatically abandon their equity in high end stuff. Without the high end products, ML loses leverage of "cache" on their lower priced stuff.

Power to the People

Yo Bro