Martin Logan versus Magnepan 1.7, ML won

[[email protected]]

Hello fellow audiophiles;

I am joining this forum after auditioning a pair of Martin Logan Ethos and the Magnepan 1.7 speakers this past week. I went into the store thinking I would become enamored with the Magnepan 1.7 speakers, but instead I found myself smiling while listening to the Ethos speakers. I often find myself analyzing the speakers as I audition them (how is the soundstage, how accurate is the placement of instruments and singers, are the speakers transparent and realistic sounding). While listening to the Ethos speakers, I stopped analyzing and simply started listening and enjoying the music. In defense of Magnepan speakers, I have heard the Magnepan 3.7 and I loved them, but the 1.7s just were not in the same league (in my opinion). Also, I believe my wife’s comment upon seeing the 3.7s was, “Oh, no. No way!” She can accept the looks of the Martin Logan; if she had her way, the speakers would be stuck in the ceiling like in some dentist’s office. Nevertheless, Martin Logan was wise to design their speakers with more WAF than many planar speakers.

I am not sure how much I am supposed to discuss while introducing myself, but I wanted to share a bit of background on why I am looking to purchase some Martin Logan speakers and thus, join the owner’s forum. I have not yet purchase the Ethos speakers, and I want to seek advice from the forum participants about which Martin Logan speaker might be the best choice for me. Do I look for a pair of Summits or do I purchase the Ethos speakers from the dealer? Considering how hard it is these days to properly audition speakers side-by-side, I look forward to advise from this forum. I always try and support local dealers, but the fiscally conservative side of me wants to find a nice set of used Martin Logan speakers like the Summit.

I look forward to conversing with you after I make a post over on the main discussion page.

Cheers.
Bob, gray-haired guy from College Station, TX (USA)

 

[roberto]

Hola Bob and welcome. If your budget is not a problem, you should listen to the Montis model. This model is a truly effortless music player speakers. The right size of the instruments, the air between them and also, what I do like is their sound stage. They have bigger panel than the Ethos, (same panel as the Summit X model) and uses a 10" woofer, with the same power amplifier built in as the Ethos. Both Ethos and Montis have a digital crossover, and a +- 10dB adjustment at 100Hz, for the bass, for room standing waves resonances, and these feature, allows to you, the get the desire bass level vs panels at your golden seat position. You can use small wattage amplifiers, because their sensitivity is very high, around 92dB/2,83V/m, giving you the chance to get a very nice sounding amplifier, and not necessary a monster amplifier (big watts). I have friends that are using only 18 watts/channel with outstanding sound quality. (Viva power amplifiers made in Italy). The nuances of the music, the free glare in the voices, the natural sound of the string instruments, the clarity of the wind instruments, percussion and overall musical instruments are played with great precision. You will caught yourself tapping with your feet and singing along with the music. Also, the soul of the musician(s) is very evident. You can call the musician(s) names very easy, because your ears will understand and recognize your favorite musician(s). The way that they play, their feeling and the fun that they are having playing together is amazing. You can listen all type of music, and the most demanding passages of the song, is reproduced like if they are playing for us, there... in our own place.

Here, in this forum, you will find members that could agreed with me on what I did say, and others might say I am wrong. The best advise that I can give to you is: Trust in your ears!!! My English is not too good, so please, I beg for an understanding. Happy listening Bob!

 

[Bevensee]

I was a a HiFi show in Denmark a few months ago, where the Danish ML dealer had made an arrangement with a local band. Their newest record is mastered with ML speakers, and he even provided all the band members with ML speakers in their home, so that when they took different versions of the music home to listen to, it would be over similar speakers. At the HiFi show, they were playing a few songs live over a pair of Montis. The ML dealer deliberately avoided a sub because he wanted to kill the myths that MLs can't play bass properly. The sound was amazing. They were voted est sound on show by visitors. And the show had a very impressive display of speakers, including TAD and other similarly priced brands.

That said, the Ethos are magnificent speakers as well from what I have heard. I have their predecessors (Vantage), and I love them to bits. I think I actually find the bass a bit cleaner on the Vantage than the Ethos. On the other hand, the Ethos has the advantage of a taller panel, so high frequencies are less rolled-off when standing up (I rarely listen to music when standing except when I'm cooking, and then it really drowns in cooking noise anyway...). But I have never heard them in the same room with the same electronics, so...

One piece of advice when auditioning ML: Play with the bass control. It is amazing what it does. In my room, I have mine turned to -8, and get full level bass to around 46 Hz where it slowly starts to roll-off. I get clean bass at what seems like -3 to -5 dB to 32 Hz, and hearable (is that even a word?) bass to 24Hz (quite low in volume, though). I can hear no bass-doubling unless I turn the volume above where I normally use it. (I wonder if anyone ever use the + range...).In different rooms, the optimum settings would be different, and this is exactly the beauty of this level control.

 

[twich54]

Bob, Welcome !

Interesting , your observation on the Ethos vs the Maggies...............my experience has shown that when the 1.7's are set up properly (room positioning, driven with ample current amplification) and accompanied with a good sub, they are pretty tough to beat at or near their price point.

Regardless, IMO the darling in the M/L lineup is the Montis for the price difference between it and the Summit allows one to purchase a great sub (or two) and thus optimize room placement of such.

 

[[email protected]]

I want to thank each of you for your responses. Let me spend a moment addressing some of your points.

I would love to have the Montis speakers, but I believe the price is beyond my budget. I think the Ethos is more in my budget, or perhaps a nice set of used Martin Logan speakers (Summit, Vantage) that would be similar in sound to the Ethos? At present, I am using my old ARC SP3a preamp (yes, the original model) along with my Quicksilver GE 8417 mono amps , Audioquest Columbia interconnects, and Kimber 4TC cables. If the mono amps don’t have enough power for the Martin Logans, I can swap them out for an ARC amp. Yes, my SP3 still has the tonal controls, which I use to compensate for poorly recorded music. When sufficiently warmed up, the SP3 has a great soundstage (maybe the newer ARC preamps are better, but this preamp is still worthy after all these years).

As to the comment from Dave about the Maggie 1.7, this is a concern of mine. This can’t be the speaker everyone raves about! Was it the setup? I simply wondered what these speakers would sound like in my listening room with my equipment. I don’t believe that is an option. I was at the mercy of the equipment in the audio store. Of course, the Ethos sounded great even with the same setup. I have had this happen while auditioning the Gallo 3.6 speakers. The Gallo reference speakers had a very nice soundstage with a high-end ARC amp and preamp, and sounded horrible in a second room (with inexpensive solid state amp and preamp). With that said, my wife hated the looks of the Magnepan and the Gallo reference 3.6 speakers! I would like to stay married and still listen to my music, which includes (but not limited to) Dire Strait (e.g., Love Over Gold), Diana Krall, Nora Jones, and even old Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys. The Martin Logan speakers would placate my wife while allowing me to listen to my music in our living space.

Again, if I am supposed to take this conversation over to the main forum, please let me know.
Thanks
Bob

 

[twich54]

Bob, understood with respect to keeping the wife happy .............

as for the Logan speaker selection, perhaps a used pair of Montis, I suspect they could be had for 5k or less

 

[digilog5]

I understand your reservations re. Maggies and MLs. I have the SL3s from 1999 still playing wonderfully at my parents' place (Bryston and Theta gear) and for a while i had the ML Source with Wyred 4 Sound Dac and power amp at my own place. Recently i made the switch to MG 1.7s after visiting my dealer few times to audition the 1.7's. Placement or electronics, or even cabling could be an issue at what you heard.

I am sure the Ethos (or even the passive model Theos with same membrane area) would be absolutely great as well, but I gave it a shot and so far my impression (2 months of ownership) has been great. I could dial them-in to get a sound very much comparable to the MLs but actually got a wider and deeper experience. I've also heard the 3.6 and i recall before that the 3.5 (debating back then MG 3.5 vs ML SL3 and decided on ML).

There are some fundamental differences that theoretically at least will result in different sound depending on the space environment.
-ML are by definition a push-pull technology speaker. Thus linearity of the membrane motion is almost guaranteed at various membrane excursions. The MG 1.7 is a push only design. Other planar magnetic designs, like Analysis Audio, Eminent, Wisdom, or the Leonardo speakers (from Italy) or the MG 20.7 contain push-pull planar magnetic elements so that they give more total control even at higher spls.
A twin-magnet push pull array would likely play better but at a much higher cost.
-Low frequency from the MG will be dipole. It took me few days to actually realize this difference from the SL3 but it is a different type of (very good) bass. Thus if a subwoofer (very fast) is needed, that will take quite some cost and a clean crossover solution to match it to the membrane (or better yet a stereo set of woofers)
-As far as high frequency is concerned in my room, i was able to get quite better HF extension than my little ML Source (which i really loved for what it did with jazz and small chamber music) and actually better than the SL3. That is after i changed the really bad jumpers with my own.
- Sweet spot seems wider with MG 1.7's compared to my MLs and i can actually walk around totally off-axis and still get HF extension.
- Placement is more critical with MGs i think. I have my 1.7s 3 ft off back wall (apartment space does not allow more) and at any less, the sound stage will collapse.

In any case the Theos is a gorgeous speaker (so is the Montis) and they are fine choices. The plus is if you will not need to discuss sub for quite some time.
The 1.7 has great, very very clean bass, but if you want something more and lower than 40 Hz it will add to the total cost.

Good luck!

 

[[email protected]]

Bob, understood with respect to keeping the wife happy .............

as for the Logan speaker selection, perhaps a used pair of Montis, I suspect they could be had for 5k or less

Let me ask one more question of this forum, please. I know that the new Martin Logan speakers are great speakers, but if I wanted to purchase a first pair of older Martin Logan speakers, is there a short list of models that should be considered? I have heard great things about the CLS speakers. One of my friends says it remains one of Martin Logan’s best speakers (despite a small sweet spot). If I purchase a used set of Martin Logans in the $1500-to- $3000 range, is there a set of older Martin Logan speakers that are worthy? Is there anything of the older Martin Logan speakers that hold their own with the Ethos (the only Martin Logan speakers I have ever heard)?
I ask this since I recently heard some Dahlquist DQ10s with the tweeters replaced with very nice ribbons. They sounded better than my Dynaudio speakers. A speaker that old is not supposed to sound that good. While many people hate the Dahlquist DQ10, Harry Pearson defended its worth for years. Same goes for some Infinity RS II series speakers I recently heard. With the correct amp and preamp, they played rock extremely well.
Thanks folks. I hope my constant barrage of questions isn’t getting old. I have searched the forum and found some very helpful threads, but I can't get a feel for how speakers like the Spires or reQuest or Prodigy or CLS compare to the Ethos speaker.

Bob

 

[twich54]

Bob, as a Spire owner (now having morphed into Montis) you know my feelings on their position within the Logan lineup. In so far as the CLS...... cult following for sure. keep in mind when buying used the panel life left and the need for good amplification and depending on your tastes, a sub........ or two !

IMO, at this moment in time a pristine pair of Spire's would be the way to go given the small incremental improvement with the Montis. I'd wager one could score a nice pair for 4k.....or less !

 

[Rich]

Bob, here are my thoughts on older models: CLS and Prodigy are two of the best speakers ML ever produced. They will do more than hold up against newer models; in some areas they will best them by a long shot. But they have to be correctly set up and mated with appropriate components (particularly the amps) to get the most out of them. And if the panels are old, replacement panel costs can be expensive. As far as the newer models go, they are easier to drive and have a little better coherence between woofer and panel. Models like the original Summit can be a great buy.

 

[roberto]

Hola Bob. You might consider the Vantage model. And it is a great speaker too. It has the new micro-perf stat panel with powered woofers. http://app.audiogon.com/listings/pl...-pair-2014-04-21-speakers-06119-w-hartford-ct Happy listening!

 

[Brad225]

Bob, as a Spire owner (now having morphed into Montis) you know my feelings on their position within the Logan lineup. In so far as the CLS...... cult following for sure. keep in mind when buying used the panel life left and the need for good amplification and depending on your tastes, a sub........ or two !

Cult follower Brad reporting in. As a lover of CLSs my opinion is they are different from other MLs. Most MLs I have heard are for me have a much more dynamically intense presentation. Not in a bad way but not the sound I am looking for.

I'm not suggesting the sound is for every one but I wouldn't change for any other ML speaker. I find them to be more relaxed in their presentation in my system. Kind of like being in a smokey jazz club 3-4 tables from the stage. They can have a very large stage and image with voice and instruments wonderfully layered.

If you decide to go this direction be sure as others have said they have good panels or know you will spend a few thousand dollars to replace them. They are also very unforgiving of all upstream equipment and you will need a sub or two to help with the bass. But if you like their sound it may be a fun journey for you.

I would suggest finding someone with CLSs and give them a listen before you purchase. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I'm with Rich regarding panel replacement issues and cost. For me, that would be a deal breaker regardless of how "good" the speaker is. I had the CLS2A's and they do things that only a full range stat can do.

If you want to buy once and be done, used legacy Summits or the Montis is the way to go.

GG

 

[User211]

The MG 1.7 is a push only design. Other planar magnetic designs, like Analysis Audio, Eminent, Wisdom, or the Leonardo speakers (from Italy) or the MG 20.7 contain push-pull planar magnetic elements so that they give more total control even at higher spls.

Are you sure about that? I think the only push pull design in that lot is the Leonardo... no? In other words, it's the only one with mags on both sides of the diaphragm.

It's a bit weird, as the genuine ribbons in the Analysis (suspended only at the top and bottom) have the magnets at the sides of the ribbon. But the bass panels in the Analysis, are all on one side of the non-genuine ribbon (clamped at the entire perimeter). There's push and pull on that bass panel, but from one side only. It is slightly non-linear, as when pulling the force is greater when the ribbon is closer to the magnets. It still produces less distortion than quite a few power amps do, though.

 

[digilog5]

From what I know Eminent, Wisdom and Leonardo are using push-pull magnet arrays at least in some of their models. You are right about the ribbon on the Analysis (lateral magnets) but i thought the main mylar was sandwiched between magnets. You may be right though...It has been quite some time since I heard them.