Martin Logan 13A's and a subwoofer pairing question.

[PVMIKE]

I am in the middle of moving to a house that changes my theater quite a bit (much larger space (16x20) however it wide open to the kitchen With that said I am looking at new subs as right now I have a MUCH smaller enclosed room running a SVS Sealed 3000. My question is that I had my eyes on x2 SVS PB 16 Ultra ported, though in reviews I see they tend not to hold up as well in the mid bass as they do in the low. Does anyone know if the 13A's hold themselves well in the mid bass section with the 4 sealed subs they bring to the table. Is this the case and reason one would want to go sealed? I am pitting the SVS's with the x2 ML Dynamo 1600x's which are sealed. Any thoughts on which way you would go? I also have the ability to run DIRAC for sound calibration once the subs are in place. Part of me is also thinking that the ML subs come with ARC as do the 13A's and maybe its best to keep the family together. Please note that I understand this hobby and obsession is very opinion based and in the end it comes to what sounds good to me, however I do welcome many opinions as it helps educate me and pushed me to learn and think about things I may not have considered in the past when making a decision.

Take a look at REL. they have awesome subs available that can also be arranged in a array that may suit your needs better

 

[ejspain]

I would go with a or a pair of Balanced Force 210 or 212. You have 13As which demand a much more refined bass. I have nothing against the 1600x but it is like you got your Porsche 911 but want to install mid-grade tires. I have a 210 and it is amazing.

Gonna have to disagree. I've been running Martin Logans in my home / home theater since the 90's and have to say their family of speakers have always paired well with just about all their siblings. I'm running the ESL 13A's in my (acoustically treated) 17x20 HT, with 2 x Dynamo 1100X's (crossed corner loaded) and without writing a novel, the pairing is AMAZING. After running ARC (on both the 13A's & 11100X), I was able to decrease the gain on the subs (in 2-channel listening) because the bass from the 13A's was SO NICE, SO TIGHT, SO REFINED, NOT BOOMY, and pressured the room pretty darn good from every seat (4). I know there's a lot of folks who are not fans of Martin Logans in a HT but my ears love it. You will NEVER find a coned speaker (in the price range) to compete with "this level" ML in any listening capacity (e.g. 2 channel music or movies). Of coarse there would NO DISAPPOINTMENT going with the BF 210 or 212 BUT for his application (17x20), I think he'd be equally pleased with the Dynamo 1100X or 1600X.....and save a few bucks

 

[ejspain]

I am in the middle of moving to a house that changes my theater quite a bit (much larger space (16x20) however it wide open to the kitchen With that said I am looking at new subs as right now I have a MUCH smaller enclosed room running a SVS Sealed 3000. My question is that I had my eyes on x2 SVS PB 16 Ultra ported, though in reviews I see they tend not to hold up as well in the mid bass as they do in the low. Does anyone know if the 13A's hold themselves well in the mid bass section with the 4 sealed subs they bring to the table. Is this the case and reason one would want to go sealed? I am pitting the SVS's with the x2 ML Dynamo 1600x's which are sealed. Any thoughts on which way you would go? I also have the ability to run DIRAC for sound calibration once the subs are in place. Part of me is also thinking that the ML subs come with ARC as do the 13A's and maybe its best to keep the family together. Please note that I understand this hobby and obsession is very opinion based and in the end it comes to what sounds good to me, however I do welcome many opinions as it helps educate me and pushed me to learn and think about things I may not have considered in the past when making a decision.

I've been running Martin Logans in my home / home theater since the 90's and have to say their family of speakers have always paired well with just about all their siblings. I'm running the ESL 13A's in my (acoustically treated) 17x20 HT, with 2 x Dynamo 1100X's (crossed corner loaded - front left and back right) and without writing a novel, the pairing is AMAZING. After running ARC (on both the 13A's & 11100X's), I was able to decrease the gain on the subs (in 2-channel listening) because the bass from the 13A's was SO NICE, SO TIGHT, SO REFINED, NOT BOOMY, and pressured the room pretty darn good from every seat (4). I know there's a lot of folks who are not fans of Martin Logans in a HT but my ears love it. You will NEVER find a coned speaker (in the price range) to compete with "this level" ML in any listening capacity (e.g. 2 channel music or movies). Of coarse there would be NO DISAPPOINTMENT going with the BF 210 or 212 BUT for your application (17x20), I think you'd be equally pleased with the Dynamo 1100X or 1600X.....and save a few bucks

 

[ejspain]

My apologies I probably should have mentioned that 95% of my listening is dedicated to movies and 5% music. This is why I would like a bit more bass, as I would like my movies to pop a bit more in that category.

I'm also a movie buff. Your room is roughly the same size as mine. I paired my 13A's with 2 Dynamo 1100X and trust me there is PLENTY of wall shaking, picture falling off the wall, BASS. Personally I think 2 - 1600X would be overkill (in your size room). The Balance Force 210 or 212 are GREAT subs but I'm a firm believer in having at least 2 subs for equalized pressure and I'm pretty confident 2 - 1100X or 1600X will please your bass craving and save a few bucks.

 

[Northy]

Gonna have to disagree. I've been running Martin Logans in my home / home theater since the 90's and have to say their family of speakers have always paired well with just about all their siblings. I'm running the ESL 13A's in my (acoustically treated) 17x20 HT, with 2 x Dynamo 1100X's (crossed corner loaded) and without writing a novel, the pairing is AMAZING. After running ARC (on both the 13A's & 11100X), I was able to decrease the gain on the subs (in 2-channel listening) because the bass from the 13A's was SO NICE, SO TIGHT, SO REFINED, NOT BOOMY, and pressured the room pretty darn good from every seat (4). I know there's a lot of folks who are not fans of Martin Logans in a HT but my ears love it. You will NEVER find a coned speaker (in the price range) to compete with "this level" ML in any listening capacity (e.g. 2 channel music or movies). Of coarse there would NO DISAPPOINTMENT going with the BF 210 or 212 BUT for his application (17x20), I think he'd be equally pleased with the Dynamo 1100X or 1600X.....and save a few bucks

ML shines in HT too. My system does double-duty 2-channel and HT. As I may have said in a different thread, it is all about refinement vs. SPL. No doubt, 1100X and 1600X do provide higher SPL for that slam of a truck hitting a wall in a movie. But for my hybrid application, there is no denying, a 210 is suiting me very well for that last ounce of "refined, lightning-fast" bass.

 

[Fidji99]

ML shines in HT too. My system does double-duty 2-channel and HT. As I may have said in a different thread, it is all about refinement vs. SPL. No doubt, 1100X and 1600X do provide higher SPL for that slam of a truck hitting a wall in a movie. But for my hybrid application, there is no denying, a 210 is suiting me very well for that last ounce of "refined, lightning-fast" bass.

Most of the perceived bass qualities are connected with room response and integration of subs with mains. Of course once you clear the hurdle of having decent sub, which both Dynamos and BF do with ease.

Best subs in the room full of modes will play poorly.

 

[codesx100]

Just gonna throw my 2 cents and recommend Quad (!) HSU VTF-15 Mk2s. Yes absolute overkill.

 

[Northy]

Just gonna throw my 2 cents and recommend Quad (!) HSU VTF-15 Mk2s. Yes absolute overkill.

I have not heard that combo but I am naturally biased toward ML products! I will not give up on my pair of Theos with BF-210 - just what Dr. Audiophile ordered!

 

[Robert D]

I have not heard that combo but I am naturally biased toward ML products! I will not give up on my pair of Theos with BF-210 - just what Dr. Audiophile ordered!

I'm extremely happy with by bf 210 so far. I was fairly happy with my ML Depth i, but it broke down fairly early IMO. It didn't sound nearly as good as this newer sub either. Both were bought new. The bf 210 integrates extremely well with my Prodigy speakers, and I'm just using the LFE input. So I'm not using their custom filter.

In the past I owned Paradigm, Sunfire, and others. The Martin Logan are by far the best sounding I've owned. I'll never say this BF 210 is the best in the market, but it's the best I've ever owned.

 

[Northy]

I'm extremely happy with by bf 210 so far. I was fairly happy with my ML Depth i, but it broke down fairly early IMO. It didn't sound nearly as good as this newer sub either. Both were bought new. The bf 210 integrates extremely well with my Prodigy speakers, and I'm just using the LFE input. So I'm not using their custom filter.

In the past I owned Paradigm, Sunfire, and others. The Martin Logan are by far the best sounding I've owned. I'll never say this BF 210 is the best in the market, but it's the best I've ever owned.

Amen to that, Robert you hit the nail on its head. It is very hard to describe how magical the 210/212 is. The way it matches the ML panel in terms of attack and decay (I am a sucker for that) is uncanny. That is why it took a while for ML to develop these subs. I believe it has been roughly 10 years since they were introduced and we do not see any replacement model news coming down the pipe line.

 

[Robert D]

Amen to that, Robert you hit the nail on its head. It is very hard to describe how magical the 210/212 is. The way it matches the ML panel in terms of attack and decay (I am a sucker for that) is uncanny. That is why it took a while for ML to develop these subs. I believe it has been roughly 10 years since they were introduced and we do not see any replacement model news coming down the pipe line.

It's the only sub I've ever owned where I catch myself getting up off the couch to look at the sub and see if the green light is on. It blends that well. No boomieness. My old ML Depth i did not blend that well. Not close.

 

[audio4me]

I have a Balanced Force 210 I am selling for $1500. It is for Atlanta area pickup only. I will not ship. If interested, PM me. Thanks!

 

[sleepysurf]

Copying this post from my System #55 thread, since it may be helpful for others.

After YEARS of trying to optimally integrate one (or two) BF 210's with my Expressions, I've finally done it! I've always struggled with a major bass null (see below) at my MLP (main listening position). Now, after getting a new (incliner) sofa, I was able to place my two BF 210 subs behind it (as I had with my older setup), and try every conceivable permutation of downloaded sub filters, manual settings, and ARC Genesis correction. What I ultimately ended up with is this...

• Expression 13A’s: Bass -3 dB, Mid-bass +2 dB
• Single BF210 Sub: Located behind sofa/MLP with speaker level connection from my C-J amp, using Exp 13A -10 dB “crossover” filter, ARC optimized, volume control -3.5, and Phase 0°. Second BF210 is used only for home theater, via my Anthem MRX 740.

Green trace shows deep bass null I’ve always had with Expressions alone, even after Anthem Room Correction. Yellow trace shows SINGLE sub with the custom “crossover filter” installed that’s designed to pair with Expressions Bass -10 dB. Blue trace (isolated in 2nd pic) shows combined effect. Bottom pic is full range room measurement, showing no room modes, and relatively equal RT60 reverb across all frequencies.

Of note, when I actually dialed back the Expressions bass the full -10 dB, the summed effect (at MLP) rolled off too much below 30 dB. I then manually adjusted the Expressions bass to achieve the flattest overall response which still sounded good. Next step will be re-running ARC Genesis on my MRX 740 which adds the 2nd sub, ML Motif center, and in-ceiling surrounds. After that, I'll likely "tweak" the Expressions (and single sub) ARC Genesis correction curves manually (in Pro mode), to "tilt" the bass up a bit more.

 

[perryz]

I am in the middle of moving to a house that changes my theater quite a bit (much larger space (16x20) however it wide open to the kitchen With that said I am looking at new subs as right now I have a MUCH smaller enclosed room running a SVS Sealed 3000. My question is that I had my eyes on x2 SVS PB 16 Ultra ported, though in reviews I see they tend not to hold up as well in the mid bass as they do in the low. Does anyone know if the 13A's hold themselves well in the mid bass section with the 4 sealed subs they bring to the table. Is this the case and reason one would want to go sealed? I am pitting the SVS's with the x2 ML Dynamo 1600x's which are sealed. Any thoughts on which way you would go? I also have the ability to run DIRAC for sound calibration once the subs are in place. Part of me is also thinking that the ML subs come with ARC as do the 13A's and maybe its best to keep the family together. Please note that I understand this hobby and obsession is very opinion based and in the end it comes to what sounds good to me, however I do welcome many opinions as it helps educate me and pushed me to learn and think about things I may not have considered in the past when making a decision.

I currently run a 212 sub with my 13as. The fact that you can upload a custom crossover profile for the sun with the 13a is great plus arc. This in my room makes for very deep, quick and detailed bass. I think the combo works really well

 

[sleepysurf]

I currently run a 212 sub with my 13as. The fact that you can upload a custom crossover profile for the sun with the 13a is great plus arc. This in my room makes for very deep, quick and detailed bass. I think the combo works really well

Which custom crossover are you using for the BF212? If not running your 13A's full range, did you dial the woofer control down the full -10 dB?

 

[perryz]

Which custom crossover are you using for the BF212? If not running your 13A's full range, did you dial the woofer control down the full -10 dB?

Hi
I am running the 13a full range. The term I should have used is I downloaded the custom low pass from the Martin Logan site. Plugged in to the 2i2 and uploaded. This overrides the adjustment on the 212 low pass. I then ran the PBK on all the speakers. Of course I then adjusted the volume on the sub.
The result has been excellent with deep tight detailed bass.
As I am waiting on delivery of the Illusion centre speaker I will need to move my 212 so will need to re run the PBK

 

[Duke]

^^^ This!

Balancing the room modes is win #1, win #2 is the increase in dynamic headroom.
Both of my systems have four subs.

I agree that more subs help with 1 and 2. It changes what you think is the best sounding music.