lossless audio for dummys question

[JonFo]

Wow, there a bit of confusion going on here. So let’s see if we can clear some of this up.

First, Lossless formats:

These are WAV, FLAC, Apple Lossless, WMA lossless, etc. and they ALL are capable of encoding a PERFECT reproduction of the input ripped from the CD.

Variances in formats are more about data compression (WAV has none, others vary depending on codec settings) ratios and metadata capabilities.
Audible differences are going to be driven by other factors, not the codec itself.

For instance, jitter differences between the output of a CD player vs a squeezebox could account for some of it. Or using a high-jitter connection, like HDMI output of an Apple TV vs a lower jitter SPDIF from the same box.

There is one caveat about lossless formats, and that is a true bit-perfect accurate rip is critical to achieving best quality.

IMHO, just ripping in iTunes to lossless is not good enough for audiophile archival and playback uses.

To do it right one must:
Rip using a good quality software that guarantees an accurate rip. Such as EAC or my current favorite: dbPowerAmp.

Only an accurately ripped WAV, FLAC or whatever will match or beat a top-end audiophile transport at delivering everything the CD medium can.

There is lot to be said about how one plays these files back, but that’s another post.

 

[JonFo]

I thought Apple Lossless had compression, just not that much. That's why I switched to AIFF on my MacBook.

Apple Lossless does have data compression.

I'd still recommend it over AIIF, as Apple Lossless has much better tag support and is compatible with more devices.

Both should deliver the same bits out of the decoder. Variances are going to be driven by accuracy of rip, and quality of post-decoder hardware (i.e. how it gets to a DAC)..

 

[amey01]

I don't know how important this is to everyone. If you are using itunes, there is a difference using apple lossless, and the wav format. I am now redoing all my music files in the wav format. I am using a digital out on my ipod dock to a digital in on my McIntosh MCD 500, using its internal dac. There is a definate difference in sound quality. Apple lossless just sounds a little flat when you compare it to the origional cd disk. I was able to que it together with a push of the input button on the cd player. I then recorded one cd in the wav format, and did the same thing. If you have good equipment, I suggest you use the wav format.

All wrong .. Sorry. I've done a little test in the past.

1: I've ripped to Apple Lossless in iTunes.
2: Then ripped to FLAC in EAC.
3: Then ripped to .WAV in EAC.
then.......
4: Checksumed the .WAV and got "X" (very long number)
then......
5: Converted the FLAC to .WAV;
and;
6: Converted the Apple Lossless to .WAV

and bingo........a checksum on the resulting .WAVs was magically "X".

They are identical. It is a non-negotiable argument.

I'll stop short of saying you're crazy though.

I can't hear any difference, but on my Squeezebox, my server converts ALAC or FLAC to .WAV and streams that out. Maybe there are differences on other equipment decoding or something - but I'm not aware of them. The point is though - the files are intrinsically the same!

One caveat: I tested with a pristine CD - maybe if the CD was scratched or otherwise damaged iTunes may not have done a perfect rip - who knows? Maybe I should make that my next test.

 

[Ron]

I have spent all day ripping cd's in the wav format. You may think I am crazy, but there is a definate difference in sound quality between apple lossless and wav. It could be my equipment is very revealing. My room is also acoustically treated from So. Cal acoustical. There can be alot of reasons I here a difference. I think on lessor equipment I would not be able to hear that difference as much.

 

[crusty]

I have tried Lossless, Lossless with Error Correction (EC), and AIFF. AIFF sounds the best, no question. It is subtle, but I was able to hear the difference on my computer (non-audiophile) speakers. The first time I noticed it, without analytically listening for it, was when I was listening to Alison Krauss and Robert Plant's Raising Sand album ripped to iTunes. I noticed that the Lossless with EC version blunted the music and stole the dynamics out of it. The music did not flow freely, and was uninteresting. And yes, there was low level information missing in Lossless with EC (I noticed it mostly in the bass). I then ripped it using Lossless, which resulted in an improvement. Out of curiosity, I then ripped it using AIFF, which made a further, though not as dramatic, improvement. After I tried this experiment, I ripped my Yo-Yo Ma CDs in AIFF. In direct comparison with AIFF, Yo-Yo Ma ripped in Lossless is lifeless, and sounds like he is playing with his bowing arm in a cast, lacking expression and emotional connection. I now rip all my CDs in AIFF.

 

[amey01]

I have spent all day ripping cd's in the wav format. You may think I am crazy, but there is a definate difference in sound quality between apple lossless and wav. It could be my equipment is very revealing. My room is also acoustically treated from So. Cal acoustical. There can be alot of reasons I here a difference. I think on lessor equipment I would not be able to hear that difference as much.

Well - this is interesting. Can you do a test for me please?

Please rip to ALAC, then convert one of the resulting ALAC files to WAV and play that. Because the bits will be identical then you should hear absolutely no difference.

If you do hear a difference, please checksum them to ensure they are identical.

You may well be hearing a difference, but it's got nothing to do with the codec or the revealingness [is that a word?] of your system. It will most likely be to do with the implementation of the ALAC decoder in your playback device. It the conversion process may not be perfect or may be introducing jitter, but I really really think this is unlikely. Out of interest, what are you using to decode and play back the ALAC files?

 

[amey01]

I have tried Lossless, Lossless with Error Correction (EC), and AIFF. AIFF sounds the best, no question. It is subtle, but I was able to hear the difference on my computer (non-audiophile) speakers. The first time I noticed it, without analytically listening for it, was when I was listening to Alison Krauss and Robert Plant's Raising Sand album ripped to iTunes. I noticed that the Lossless with EC version blunted the music and stole the dynamics out of it. The music did not flow freely, and was uninteresting. And yes, there was low level information missing in Lossless with EC (I noticed it mostly in the bass). I then ripped it using Lossless, which resulted in an improvement. Out of curiosity, I then ripped it using AIFF, which made a further, though not as dramatic, improvement. After I tried this experiment, I ripped my Yo-Yo Ma CDs in AIFF. In direct comparison with AIFF, Yo-Yo Ma ripped in Lossless is lifeless, and sounds like he is playing with his bowing arm in a cast, lacking expression and emotional connection. I now rip all my CDs in AIFF.

Can you please do the same test for me (in my post above)?

I can't - because (on my Squeezebox) there is no difference.

 

[amey01]

UPDATE: I just tested on the most scratched CD I own (it's not very scratched, but anyway.....)

iTunes to WAV: b4042ec76838270e225b49b32bdaa180818b67a6
iTunes to ALAC: 4a37c81b7a32c0b8a9a5edd22809ca50a73fdfdb
ALAC to WAV (in iTunes): b4042ec76838270e225b49b32bdaa180818b67a6

They are the same.........

 

[Jimna]

cant argue that.

 

[Audiophiliac]

I have been ripping with EAC and converting to FLAC for nearly 7 years now. I cannot imagine going back to a CD player to listen to my tunes.

I have my Sony TZ laptop that as of now is just hooked up to my Audioengine A5 powered speakers via the headphone output (not what you would call "high fidelity"). I stream the FLAC via wifi from my PC and boom....I have tens of thousands of songs to choose from at my fingertips.

I am in a new house and have literally zero audio gear at the moment. That is about to change. I am thinking of picking up a Peachtree Nova, and a Sonos ZP90 to have more convenient access to my FLAC files. Speakers are not decided yet. If I can find a nice used set of Zu Druids, I think I will go for them. I fell in love with them when I visited the factory and spent the afternoon running around with Sean.

If you want to get some more insight into computer audio, check out what Steve at Empirical Audio is doing. He seems to be THEE computer audio guru in the industry. Some interesting white papers on his site. He also runs a circle at audiocircle.com.

I try not to bother myself with all the tedious details. I just play the music and enjoy. As my system is now, it needs improvement. But it does not stop me from enjoying the music.

 

[gordonmenninger]

For those who have a Squeezebox and an ipod - what format do you rip to? Apple lossless can play perfectly through sqb and ipod. However Flac cannot be played on ipod but can be played through sqb. I just downloaded the dBpoweramp cd ripper and have started ripping to Wave as it plays fine in my ipod as well.

what is everyone else using?
thx

 

[zaphod]

i rip to appleloss and let the PC convert before sending it to the sqbx. works fine, no hics in playback.

 

[amey01]

I rip to FLAC and then do a quick conversion to MP3 (320k) using Foobar2000 for the iPod. I've got a small amount of Apple Lossless. No hiccups playing this on the SBs or iPods, but FLAC is now my format of choice since it is better supported on the Squeezebox [ie. you can scan forward and reverse - you cannot using a transcoded format].

As for Ron and Crusty (or anyone else that says that lossless is not actually lossless) - I'm genuinely interested if you can please perform my test above! [requested in post #26]

 

[gordonmenninger]

I rip to FLAC and then do a quick conversion to MP3 (320k) using Foobar2000 for the iPod. I've got a small amount of Apple Lossless. No hiccups playing this on the SBs or iPods, but FLAC is now my format of choice since it is better supported on the Squeezebox [ie. you can scan forward and reverse - you cannot using a transcoded format].

As for Ron and Crusty (or anyone else that says that lossless is not actually lossless) - I'm genuinely interested if you can please perform my test above! [requested in post #26]

so are you saying you are using 2 seperate formats for squeezebox (flac) and ipod (mp3)? The flac files do not play back on my ipod ...

 

[zaphod]

yep, that's what he is saying. when i looked into this i found that some people keep two copies of all their music - a FLAC version and an iPod version (either mp3 or apple lossless). s/w exists to batch convert between the two so the effoert is minimal and storage is cheap enough now a days that they don't care about the extra space for the mp3s.

the other approach i've seen people do is hack the ipod (and itunes if they want to use itunes) to support Flac. i'm just not comfortable with doing that.

FLAC vs applelossless can be a bit religious in discussion. many people (myself included) gave up and drank the apple koolaid...

 

[Jimna]

i use the rockbox firmware on my 20gig iriver so iu can play flac directly off of it. works great, no apple dictation of what files i can use, and i only need one copy of any album. i hate proprietary software. rockbox is free too.