Looking at subwoofer brands other than ML

[gadgetguy11]

You don't have any problems with all of those subs shaking that wall and the screen, causing rattles? Did you have the wall built in a special way? Im also wondering about the suspension ceiling rattling. Seems like bass has a way of finding anything that is lose.

That theater looks great! I plan on doing something similar. Ive got a few more questions if you don't mind.

Some guys say that the 4k projectors with HDR still don't look as good as an OLED TV screen. What do you find? I've also read some say the perf screen require a compromise in image quality. Do you find that to be true?

This is my 7th theatre so I learned from many mistakes made previously. There are no rattles from the wall that supports the screen. The contractor that built all 4 walls knew of the bass power that his walls would need to survive without rattles. He glued, nailed & screwed everything & used sill sealer to avoid wood on wood squeaks. See attached photo.

The suspended ceiling is Acoustic Ceiling Tile with a high NRC rating available in black or white. It is extremely important not to use general purpose ceiling tile. The acoustic properties of ACT are amazing! No squeaks whatsoever, even more important considering the 4) Atmos suspended speakers.

You asked some great questions! Here are answers:

1- I have a 77", 65" & 2) 55" OLED in the house. OLED offers the greatest contrast, blackest blacks, & amazingly intense colors. They offer the most stunning picture available today. HOWEVER, we find ourselves drawn to the 144" diagonal projection system & neither of us want to watch the new 77" OLED. The projection experience is unlike any other. It draws you in & we find that no OLED monitor satisfies after experiencing it. This is key: step up to the SONY VPL-VW695ES. It is leagues ahead of the reasonably priced SONY VPL-VW295ES projector & is well worth 2X it's cost. It has greater contrast & brightness.

2- I completely agree with the opinion that the perf screen may compromise image quality. That is only an opinion, but I chose a top rated screen WITHOUT

the perf: Screen Innovations Zero Edge Pro, Black Diamond, with 16 million color Philips hue backlight. The screen costs about $6,800 but it is one of the requirements, along with a top performing projector, to nail the contrast & detail you are looking for. This screen has a gain of 1.4 & rejects 85% of ambient room light, so you can have lights on in the theatre while enjoying a stunning picture. I attached a random cell phone pic of a Blu-Ray Foreigner concert displayed on the projection screen, snapped from the front row, 17 feet from the screen. The projector is upscaling the a standard Blu-Ray 1080P to 4K & you can see the results for yourself.

3A- To avoid using a perf screen, I chose the largest screen dimension possible, keeping 17" of space above & below the screen & enough space right & left for 2) ML ReQuest speakers on each side. I mounted a ML Logos Center Channel speaker above & one below the screen in the 17" gap, so your ears perceive the center is midway between the top & bottom. It literally sounds like the center is coming from the middle of the screen. Each Logos center channel is driven by a Krell FPB600 as shown in attached photo.

3B- The dimensions dictated a 144" (12' diagonal) screen is the largest that would maintain the 17" open space above & below the screen. Photo of screen assembly & back lights attached.

3C- The 4) REL HT/1508 Predator Subwoofers are 19" high, but the each 15" driver is only 17" above the ground. So all 4) REL subwoofers sit just below the 144" screen, 2) on each side of the Logos center channel & are balance-output-connected to the LFE on the Anthem AVM 60 Processor.

3D- Conclusion: If you choose not to use a perf screen, maximize the screen diagonal dimensions your room allows, leaving empty space for speakers above, below & to the sides of the screen.

 

[Robert D]

This is my 7th theatre so I learned from many mistakes made previously. There are no rattles from the wall that supports the screen. The contractor that built all 4 walls knew of the bass power that his walls would need to survive without rattles. He glued, nailed & screwed everything & used sill sealer to avoid wood on wood squeaks. See attached photo.

The suspended ceiling is Acoustic Ceiling Tile with a high NRC rating available in black or white. It is extremely important not to use general purpose ceiling tile. The acoustic properties of ACT are amazing! No squeaks whatsoever, even more important considering the 4) Atmos suspended speakers.

You asked some great questions! Here are answers:

1- I have a 77", 65" & 2) 55" OLED in the house. OLED offers the greatest contrast, blackest blacks, & amazingly intense colors. They offer the most stunning picture available today. HOWEVER, we find ourselves drawn to the 144" diagonal projection system & neither of us want to watch the new 77" OLED. The projection experience is unlike any other. It draws you in & we find that no OLED monitor satisfies after experiencing it. This is key: step up to the SONY VPL-VW695ES. It is leagues ahead of the reasonably priced SONY VPL-VW295ES projector & is well worth 2X it's cost. It has greater contrast & brightness.

2- I completely agree with the opinion that the perf screen may compromise image quality. That is only an opinion, but I chose a top rated screen WITHOUTView attachment 21224View attachment 21225View attachment 21226View attachment 21227View attachment 21228 the perf: Screen Innovations Zero Edge Pro, Black Diamond, with 16 million color Philips hue backlight. The screen costs about $6,800 but it is one of the requirements, along with a top performing projector, to nail the contrast & detail you are looking for. This screen has a gain of 1.4 & rejects 85% of ambient room light, so you can have lights on in the theatre while enjoying a stunning picture. I attached a random cell phone pic of a Blu-Ray Foreigner concert displayed on the projection screen, snapped from the front row, 17 feet from the screen. The projector is upscaling the a standard Blu-Ray 1080P to 4K & you can see the results for yourself.

3A- To avoid using a perf screen, I chose the largest screen dimension possible, keeping 17" of space above & below the screen & enough space right & left for 2) ML ReQuest speakers on each side. I mounted a ML Logos Center Channel speaker above & one below the screen in the 17" gap, so your ears perceive the center is midway between the top & bottom. It literally sounds like the center is coming from the middle of the screen. Each Logos center channel is driven by a Krell FPB600 as shown in attached photo.

3B- The dimensions dictated a 144" (12' diagonal) screen is the largest that would maintain the 17" open space above & below the screen. Photo of screen assembly & back lights attached.

3C- The 4) REL HT/1508 Predator Subwoofers are 19" high, but the each 15" driver is only 17" above the ground. So all 4) REL subwoofers sit just below the 144" screen, 2) on each side of the Logos center channel & are balance-output-connected to the LFE on the Anthem AVM 60 Processor.

3D- Conclusion: If you choose not to use a perf screen, maximize the screen diagonal dimensions your room allows, leaving empty space for speakers above, below & to the sides of the screen.

So that suspension ceiling is more vibration resistant than using a drywall ceiling? I didnt know that was possible. Nice too to have that so you have access up above the ceiling to work on speakers or any electrical/plumbing that might run through there.

With all of that bass, would it be disaster having standard pvc pipes running through that room area? Wondering if copper would be better or worse. How it is fastened down is probably most important?

Right now i just have a simple atmos setup in our family room with a 55 inch LG OLED. I want to build a new ranch with a home theater in the basement. Ive got a big 25 x20 unfinished part in our basement with no windows now that I had built, but I want a 1 story. Doesn't make sense to sink all of that money into this home that I want to sell.

You've done lots of theaters now. Do you think having a dedicated home theater room adds to the resale value? Do you recover enough of the expense to break even?

 

[gadgetguy11]

So that suspension ceiling is more vibration resistant than using a drywall ceiling? I didnt know that was possible. Nice too to have that so you have access up above the ceiling to work on speakers or any electrical/plumbing that might run through there.

With all of that bass, would it be disaster having standard pvc pipes running through that room area? Wondering if copper would be better or worse. How it is fastened down is probably most important?

Right now i just have a simple atmos setup in our family room with a 55 inch LG OLED. I want to build a new ranch with a home theater in the basement. Ive got a big 25 x20 unfinished part in our basement with no windows now that I had built, but I want a 1 story. Doesn't make sense to sink all of that money into this home that I want to sell.

You've done lots of theaters now. Do you think having a dedicated home theater room adds to the resale value? Do you recover enough of the expense to break even?

Robert,

The Acoustic Ceiling Tile with a high NRC rating is MUCH more vibration resistant than a drywall ceiling. I enclosed a room for my acoustic drums and mistakingly drywalled the ceiling. I should have installed the same Acoustic Ceiling Tile that I installed in the Theatre! The cymbal crash is so bright, it kills my ears. I crashed a cymbal in the Theatre as a comparison. You cannot believe the improved clarity & directionality, due to the reduction of reflections. Google: "Acoustic Ceiling Tile with a high NRC rating" for more information.

As you stated, it is a big plus to have overhead wiring / plumbing access, too.

My house is less than 2 years old; there is no copper; only Pex & PVC. There are no issues whatsoever. Copper could resonate if not properly secured; I would avoid it if possible. Proper securing all plumbing is critical.

I love the 55" LG OLED. After we built the Theatre, we realized that a theatre in the basement virtually requires a bar for snacks & drinks just outside the Theatre. We built a bar & installed 3) OLED TV's, making it a Sports Bar. I tell you this, because going upstairs just to get refreshments for the Theatre is not fun. The pictures show 2) OLED's in the bar.

A Home Theatre in the basement definitely improves property value & client appeal. However, I would never let ML's, separate amps or a high end projector or screen go with the house, because you will not recoup your investment from high end gear.

When I sold my last house with a Theatre, I removed the separate amps, amp rack & all Martin Logan speakers before I listed the property & stored them off-site. I substituted a receiver, such as Denon or Yamaha for the separate amps & processor & added modestly priced speakers. If you search your favorite Home Theatre retailer & ask for an Open Box receiver & speakers, you may be able to snap up a bargain. You can be flexible on Brand, Power, # of Channels, minor scratches, missing box, etc. & can save a fortune while rebuilding a Home Theatre for the new buyers.

 

[Robert D]

Robert,

The Acoustic Ceiling Tile with a high NRC rating is MUCH more vibration resistant than a drywall ceiling. I enclosed a room for my acoustic drums and mistakingly drywalled the ceiling. I should have installed the same Acoustic Ceiling Tile that I installed in the Theatre! The cymbal crash is so bright, it kills my ears. I crashed a cymbal in the Theatre as a comparison. You cannot believe the improved clarity & directionality, due to the reduction of reflections. Google: "Acoustic Ceiling Tile with a high NRC rating" for more information.

As you stated, it is a big plus to have overhead wiring / plumbing access, too.

My house is less than 2 years old; there is no copper; only Pex & PVC. There are no issues whatsoever. Copper could resonate if not properly secured; I would avoid it if possible. Proper securing all plumbing is critical.

I love the 55" LG OLED. After we built the Theatre, we realized that a theatre in the basement virtually requires a bar for snacks & drinks just outside the Theatre. We built a bar & installed 3) OLED TV's, making it a Sports Bar. I tell you this, because going upstairs just to get refreshments for the Theatre is not fun. The pictures show 2) OLED's in the bar.

View attachment 21231View attachment 21232

A Home Theatre in the basement definitely improves property value & client appeal. However, I would never let ML's, separate amps or a high end projector or screen go with the house, because you will not recoup your investment from high end gear.

When I sold my last house with a Theatre, I removed the separate amps, amp rack & all Martin Logan speakers before I listed the property & stored them off-site. I substituted a receiver, such as Denon or Yamaha for the separate amps & processor & added modestly priced speakers. If you search your favorite Home Theatre retailer & ask for an Open Box receiver & speakers, you may be able to snap up a bargain. You can be flexible on Brand, Power, # of Channels, minor scratches, missing box, etc. & can save a fortune while rebuilding a Home Theatre for the new buyers.

I was worried that since the tiles in the ceiling just hang or sit in a metal grid that they might shake or vibrate with bass. I guess they fit pretty tight, and the metal lattice doesnt shake at all either? I wasnt even considering the reflection of high frequency sound waves off of the ceiling ,that is a big bonus.

Ive read online about decoupling the walls to avoid vibrations. Did they do that for your's, or do you think thats really not needed? This article I found educated me some on it.
Soundproofing 101: How To Keep Your Home Theater Quiet | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)

Did they do any of that for your room? The best system seems to be in effect two walls built back to back with air space in the middle to dampen sound. Ive not read the article in awhile so I forget a lot of it. You really seem to know your stuff, so I want to see what worked for you. Thanks so much for answering my questions! If I ever get around to doing this, I want to avoid making mistakes and wasting money. Another thing I think you have to worry about in building a home theater room is an adequate power supply, set up the circuits right.

I agree about having a wet bar close to the theater. I figured I would do the same as you and have it just outside the theater. Have a separate panty and all you need to store and serve food. I hadnt thought about the tv, but thats a good idea too! I love your Pacman! Brings back old memories from the 80s growing up. Im 51 years old. Ive got a good friend that buys and fixes up old pinball machines. He then sets them up in businesses and collects income from them as people play them for coins. They do really well in bars he said. Hes got a garage just full of them for his family's enjoyment.

 

[gadgetguy11]

I was worried that since the tiles in the ceiling just hang or sit in a metal grid that they might shake or vibrate with bass. I guess they fit pretty tight, and the metal lattice doesnt shake at all either? I wasnt even considering the reflection of high frequency sound waves off of the ceiling ,that is a big bonus.

Ive read online about decoupling the walls to avoid vibrations. Did they do that for your's, or do you think thats really not needed? This article I found educated me some on it.
Soundproofing 101: How To Keep Your Home Theater Quiet | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)

Did they do any of that for your room? The best system seems to be in effect two walls built back to back with air space in the middle to dampen sound. Ive not read the article in awhile so I forget a lot of it. You really seem to know your stuff, so I want to see what worked for you. Thanks so much for answering my questions! If I ever get around to doing this, I want to avoid making mistakes and wasting money. Another thing I think you have to worry about in building a home theater room is an adequate power supply, set up the circuits right.

I agree about having a wet bar close to the theater. I figured I would do the same as you and have it just outside the theater. Have a separate panty and all you need to store and serve food. I hadnt thought about the tv, but thats a good idea too! I love your Pacman! Brings back old memories from the 80s growing up. Im 51 years old. Ive got a good friend that buys and fixes up old pinball machines. He then sets them up in businesses and collects income from them as people play them for coins. They do really well in bars he said. Hes got a garage just full of them for his family's enjoyment.

The ceiling tiles fight very tight. No movement is possible. No shaking from the suspended ceiling, either.

I am very familiar with decoupling the walls but decided to not take that step because there are only 2 of us at home (empty nest). When the Theatre is rocking, there is no one upstairs to benefit from decoupling the walls. If there were others upstairs, I would have decoupled the walls.

Each Krell FPB 600 specifies that it needs it's own dedicated 120 VAC circuit. Fortunately, our new house has 500 Amp service, so I paid a Certified Electrician to run a separate circuit for each power amp you see in the rack.

I just picked up PacMan & NBA Jam at Costco for $399 each. Then you can buy matching stools elsewhere.

Here is the Theatre before this one. You see a dramatic difference! My late wife passed away from Cancer in that home; I sold the house, bought a ranch this time, eventually was Blessed to meet a lovely lady, fall in love & marry her. Stephanie encouraged me on the Theatre build, which we just now completed. Stephanie said: "You are 64. How many more Theatres do you plan to build?" I followed her advice as best I could. This old Theatre had the same amps & ML speakers (no REL Subs) but with an older processor; the amps were a floor below with wires up the walls in this old Theatre. The seats were from an old Commercial Theatre that closed. I used a 70" Elite LED TV as a monitor. What a difference then & now!

 

[Robert D]

The ceiling tiles fight very tight. No movement is possible. No shaking from the suspended ceiling, either.

I am very familiar with decoupling the walls but decided to not take that step because there are only 2 of us at home (empty nest). When the Theatre is rocking, there is no one upstairs to benefit from decoupling the walls. If there were others upstairs, I would have decoupled the walls.

Each Krell FPB 600 specifies that it needs it's own dedicated 120 VAC circuit. Fortunately, our new house has 500 Amp service, so I paid a Certified Electrician to run a separate circuit for each power amp you see in the rack.

I just picked up PacMan & NBA Jam at Costco for $399 each. Then you can buy matching stools elsewhere.

Here is the Theatre before this one. You see a dramatic difference! My late wife passed away from Cancer in that home; I sold the house, bought a ranch this time, eventually was Blessed to meet a lovely lady, fall in love & marry her. Stephanie encouraged me on the Theatre build, which we just now completed. Stephanie said: "You are 64. How many more Theatres do you plan to build?" I followed her advice as best I could. This old Theatre had the same amps & ML speakers (no REL Subs) but with an older processor; the amps were a floor below with wires up the walls in this old Theatre. The seats were from an old Commercial Theatre that closed. I used a 70" Elite LED TV as a monitor. What a difference then & now!

View attachment 21233

So with the walls not decoupled, they don't rattle any with the bass and cause noise for you as a listener in the room when you are viewing a movie? We have rattling now sometimes but I think its mostly a couple of wall hangings and stuff sitting on the mantle. I put some rubber pads on picture frames and it helped some. Im afraid the walls might vibrate enough to distract viewers from the movie. Did you do anything special with the walls? It would be great to not have to spend money on the walls, leaves more for equipment!

Sorry to hear about your late wife. I'm 51 and have heart failure, not sure how much longer I will be around. I feel like I need to get things in gear and build a new house soon! Always wanted a nice theater like you have, hoping I don't wait too long. About 6 years ago I bought a Porsche 911 turbo, so checked that off of the bucket list!

Thanks for the great pictures and sharing your home theater knowledge.

 

[gadgetguy11]

So with the walls not decoupled, they don't rattle any with the bass and cause noise for you as a listener in the room when you are viewing a movie? We have rattling now sometimes but I think its mostly a couple of wall hangings and stuff sitting on the mantle. I put some rubber pads on picture frames and it helped some. Im afraid the walls might vibrate enough to distract viewers from the movie. Did you do anything special with the walls? It would be great to not have to spend money on the walls, leaves more for equipment!

Sorry to hear about your late wife. I'm 51 and have heart failure, not sure how much longer I will be around. I feel like I need to get things in gear and build a new house soon! Always wanted a nice theater like you have, hoping I don't wait too long. About 6 years ago I bought a Porsche 911 turbo, so checked that off of the bucket list!

Thanks for the great pictures and sharing your home theater knowledge.

The walls do not rattle any with the bass. I was concerned that the suspended air vent would rattle with bass, but it has not done this at all, probably due to it's heavy construction. I had the contractor not just nail the walls, but to screw them & glue them, to keep the joints extra tight.

A Porsche 911 Turbo is still on my bucket list... Congrats to you!!!! Text me if you are ever near KY & I will invite you over. I'd be honored to meet you.

 

[WestCoastMLO]

The ceiling tiles fight very tight. No movement is possible. No shaking from the suspended ceiling, either.

I am very familiar with decoupling the walls but decided to not take that step because there are only 2 of us at home (empty nest). When the Theatre is rocking, there is no one upstairs to benefit from decoupling the walls. If there were others upstairs, I would have decoupled the walls.

Each Krell FPB 600 specifies that it needs it's own dedicated 120 VAC circuit. Fortunately, our new house has 500 Amp service, so I paid a Certified Electrician to run a separate circuit for each power amp you see in the rack.

I just picked up PacMan & NBA Jam at Costco for $399 each. Then you can buy matching stools elsewhere.

Here is the Theatre before this one. You see a dramatic difference! My late wife passed away from Cancer in that home; I sold the house, bought a ranch this time, eventually was Blessed to meet a lovely lady, fall in love & marry her. Stephanie encouraged me on the Theatre build, which we just now completed. Stephanie said: "You are 64. How many more Theatres do you plan to build?" I followed her advice as best I could. This old Theatre had the same amps & ML speakers (no REL Subs) but with an older processor; the amps were a floor below with wires up the walls in this old Theatre. The seats were from an old Commercial Theatre that closed. I used a 70" Elite LED TV as a monitor. What a difference then & now!

View attachment 21233

Thank you for sharing your story and your amazing theater build and knowledge! My condolences regarding your late wife, and congratulations on finding love and relationship again. May you have many happy years of life, love and great home theater together!

 

[gadgetguy11]

Thank you for sharing your story and your amazing theater build and knowledge! My condolences regarding your late wife, and congratulations on finding love and relationship again. May you have many happy years of life, love and great home theater together!

Thank you so very much for your kind remarks! Losing my wife of 15 years was the darkest chapter of my life.

Finding love again in my early 60's was truly an unexpected gift, for which I am most grateful. I really appreciate your wonderful comments!

 

[Nuri58]

Well no ML or other brands can make up for such loss. Only destiny can change the game. So you're in luck, well you have surely worked for it so to speak. So off to enjoy I hope

 

[Lightloopy]

"Enjoy Every Sandwich" Warren Zevon

 

[spkrdctr]

I can recommend going to Audioholics youtube site and looking at their video on Best Subwoofers under $1500 for 2020 and 2021. They have some VERY nice subs listed and they really like the ML Dynamo series. All the heavy hitters made in that price range are amazing in performance. That list even includes some servo subs so being ported is not an issue. Rythmic made the list too. Well worth watching to learn about mid-priced subs.

 

[Robert D]

I've got no issues with spending $3500 on a sub, but it seems like you would get better sound buying two $1800 subs. For instance, two of those Rythmik 18 inch subs versus one Martin Logan Balanced Force 210. Frustrating that you can't compare the subs in person. I did see that Rythmik offers them as returnable if you don't like it.

 

[ttocs]

You don't want too much, and you don't want too little.

The best subwoofer in the world in the wrong room, whether too big or too small, or other factors, won't work.

Think of it this way. Pete Townsend's wall of Marshall amps in a 30 foot by 8 foot room will never sound right. A small combo amp with the volume too low won't sound right, no matter how large or small the room is. The same is true with stereo speakers, they need to be moving enough, but not too much to sound "right".

I take the same approach with subs. One 12" driver sub in a 6000 cubic foot room just won't fill the space, even when pushed to its maximum level. Ten subwoofers in a 1000 cubic foot room might work ok if they are all able to make more musical noise than electrical noise.

After reading a gazillion pages of resource material and paying more attention to those who actually methodically measured different scenarios, it seems that more than one is good, more than four is adding difficulty when four is enough. Caveats notwithstanding (and there are many!), if there is a perfect room, four, with one on each wall, is the perfect scenario.

I agree with many of the statements offered so far. There are so many factors involved that there can be many correct ways to go about getting good subwoofer performance. One thing I agree with is that two value priced subs can more easily provide a great result than when one great sub is simply not enough.

 

[spkrdctr]

TTocs, I agree with you 100%. Putting two big Masterpiece 15's in a 10X10 room is nuts. Put them in a much bigger room and they will sing!
Switching to subs the thing about big subs is you can turn them down even if they are oversized. The subs that are all servo controlled are really the whiz bang of the subwoofer world. Really diminishes any unwanted cone movement so you get a nice clean quick sound, barring any crazy room nodes.

 

[Robert D]

Im hoping my ML depth i holds up another few years until we build a new home where I will have a dedicated home theater, that way I can plan the sub for that size room. It will most probably be about the same size as the room I use now, about 20 x20 x 8 or 9 feet high.

 

[jmschnur]

I have two jl112s with my Montis. They blend in very well indeed

 

[Robert D]

Are the Martin Logan balanced force subs servo controlled like the Rythmik subs are?