Look out

[Bernard]

Okay Cherian, so the power cords SHOULD sound the same, but what would you say if you tried two different cords (perhaps at your next get-together) and they did sound different? I would hate to think you are unwilling to even try it.

 

[Cherian]

I'm willing to try it. It will have to be a blind test with one person changing out the power cords (not taking part in the test) and the listeners not knowing till the end what cords are used. The other issue as I see it is our audio memory is just not that good. For science I’m willing to try it.

A true test would be to plot the audio output of test signals on a graph and then try different power cords and see if the curve changes. Just insure the power cords are the same length and placed in the exact manor. A strong AC high frequency switching on-line power source should be used so no power fluctuations can affect the test. In my house at any given moment the voltage can change 4 or 5 volts.

 

[tonepub]

Ill be happy to send you a pair of the ESP cords if you want to give em a try...

Let me know. These babies are 900 bucks a pop now. You pay the shipping and I'll send you a pair...

How's that for a trust excercise?

Let me know.

No strings attached. Give em a listen, tell us what you hear, measure things if you want
to and send em back when you are done. If you love them, I'll give you a great deal on
them.

 

[Cherian]

The next Chicago audio get together is slated for Feb. Jeff I may just take you up on your offer.

Should we power the Amp, MLs, pre amp, source or sub with them? What would give the most impact?

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Thanks much.............................................. ................

.....guys.

I started this thread as I had a interesting encounter of late. Jack Alexander (Director of Live Sound Reinforcement at Columbia College Chicago, and Education Editor of Live Sound International) is the sound man for a Chicago based band I have performed off and on with for 10 years. Jack is to the say the least, a giant of a live sound guy. He can mix a band with his eyes closed.

Over the years we have developed a friendship and Jack is a major home audio nut, MAJOR! (just like all of us) He was recently at my home and purchased my Threshold 300 as I have replaced it with a CJ (discussed in another thread, thanks for the help guys) While at my house, of course listening to tunes Jack started talking cables and found it hard to believe that I had not replaced my power cables. He basically thought I was really missing something big here.

Lots to say here about Jack folks. For one, Jack is very anti-measurement (his words not mine) He also admits to being rather controversial on this particular subject. The guy has great ears and while at my home did some small things that yielded some nice results. Much more to say but will let the thread roll. I just wanted to let you all know......... why.

BTW Gordon - Jack is a huge believer in the Dots and many of the product from the company you were speaking of. He does not have any of the Dots but did a nice little demonstration at my house of the affect they might have on a window. Made a lot of sense to me.

One more thing Jack at one time had a Pair of Sequels, Soundlabs, and Quads.............. he knows the panels.:rocker:

Doug - out

 

[SteveInNC]

We revive this zombie horse every so often. No one that I'm aware of has ever changed their minds for either side as a result of the impending discussion/flame-fest.

I'm with Cherian, and for the same reasons: You have 25-150 feet of utter crap solid copper wire running through your house (NM14, NM12), running from cheap breakers that make friction contact with the bus bars in the panel (often steel or clad copper themselves), fed by several miles of power distribution line, which in most cases is aluminum alloy with some steel reinforcement... and that six-foot special power cable from the wall to your speakers is going to make a significant difference? For many Logans, that power is simply feeding a high-voltage, high-frequency transformer circuit used to charge the panels.

The only concession I'm willing to make is that IF you are feeding your special power cable off of a power conditioner to your speakers, and you have an extremely noisy electrical environment, it MAY have some minimal effect.

 

[Gordon Gray]

.....guys.

I started this thread as I had a interesting encounter of late. Jack Alexander (Director of Live Sound Reinforcement at Columbia College Chicago, and Education Editor of Live Sound International) is the sound man for a Chicago based band I have performed off and on with for 10 years. Jack is to the say the least, a giant of a live sound guy. He can mix a band with his eyes closed.

Over the years we have developed a friendship and Jack is a major home audio nut, MAJOR! (just like all of us) He was recently at my home and purchased my Threshold 300 as I have replaced it with a CJ (discussed in another thread, thanks for the help guys) While at my house, of course listening to tunes Jack started talking cables and found it hard to believe that I had not replaced my power cables. He basically thought I was really missing something big here.

Lots to say here about Jack folks. For one, Jack is very anti-measurement (his words not mine) He also admits to being rather controversial on this particular subject. The guy has great ears and while at my home did some small things that yielded some nice results. Much more to say but will let the thread roll. I just wanted to let you all know......... why.

BTW Gordon - Jack is a huge believer in the Dots and many of the product from the company you were speaking of. He does not have any of the Dots but did a nice little demonstration at my house of the affect they might have on a window. Made a lot of sense to me.

One more thing Jack at one time had a Pair of Sequels, Soundlabs, and Quads.............. he knows the panels.:rocker:

Doug - out

Doug,

I am humbled by your post and Jack's perspective. Thank you for the observations about Marigo.

GG

 

[David Matz]

I'm willing to try it. It will have to be a blind test with one person changing out the power cords (not taking part in the test) and the listeners not knowing till the end what cords are used. The other issue as I see it is our audio memory is just not that good. For science I’m willing to try it.

A true test would be to plot the audio output of test signals on a graph and then try different power cords and see if the curve changes. Just insure the power cords are the same length and placed in the exact manor. A strong AC high frequency switching on-line power source should be used so no power fluctuations can affect the test. In my house at any given moment the voltage can change 4 or 5 volts.

All cords and conditioners sound different to me. Differences with sources and amps are day and night. For example, I tried a $2K Synergistic cord on my Ayre source, and it sounded awefully bright; Transparent was just right. The same Synergistic cord sounded sublime on the CJ CT5 preamp. My Bryston amp comes alive when current is freely delivered to it with a good cord. One has to be deaf not to tell the difference. I will be very curious to try this with you, and I will bring some of my cords to contrast the sound from Jeff's cords.

This is from the Ayre site, the last group of guys one would call snake oil salesmen.

...[The Ayre power conditioner] dissipates high frequency interference as harmless thermal energy, delivering pure AC power to your system. Backgrounds become deeper and richer, and the music’s ease and fluidity is revealed. Four independent outlets provide bidirectional filtering to fully isolate your components, including digital sources. Unrestricted current capability means unrestricted dynamics with even the most demanding amplifiers.

 

[amey01]

what are ya...................chicken?

Doug - out

ooooooohhhhhhhh - sounds like peer pressure!

Ok then - stock ones for me. For two reasons -

1. As I've said in a certain other thread, better to spend the money on traditional upgrades

and;

2. Specifically for power cables -
a) The signal does not flow through it
b) Do you all realise that the power has travelled through kilometres and kilometres of crappy cable - out in the sun, through substations, transformers, fuses, breakers, etc. How possibliy could tacking a metre or two on the end of this make any difference?

It's like connecting your speakers with coat hangers but takking an inch of Nordost Valhalla on the speaker end and saying there is benefit in doing this. Surely not.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Nope as an power engineer I don't buy into it. I have never seen or heard any proof that they work. The only thing I will say is have the cord gauge that is appropriate for the amps being used. The ML speakers use less than .1 Amps of current to charge the stat panels (Powered speakers excluded: Summits and so forth). What is a low gauge cable going to buy you? If anything these cables will transmit electrical noise more efficiently.

Try it. Many online retailers (such as the Cable Co.) will let you audition cables. If you don't hear the difference please let us know.

 

[DTB300]

I'm willing to try it. It will have to be a blind test with one person changing out the power cords (not taking part in the test) and the listeners not knowing till the end what cords are used. The other issue as I see it is our audio memory is just not that good. For science I’m willing to try it.

Swapping out PC for testing does take time, and as you noted audio memory leaves us very quickly. So while not as easy as having two IC's connected up and quickly swapping between inputs, PC present more of an issue for objective testing. PA also comes into play, as you are aware changes are being made, hence the need to hear a difference.

I would try them first on your source, then pre, then power, then speakers if you have the time. In my rig, the source resulted in the largest change.

 

[babydoc]

Power Cords and Power Sources for ESLs

I have enjoyed this thread immensely since it deals with a nearly irresolvable issue of measurements versus subjective A-B impressions. A point that should be noted is that most domestic power supplies leave a lot to be desired in terms of voltage stability and line interference. A first step should be to consider installing dedicated power lines (if feasible) for sources, amplification and other RF sensitive equipment. I have four in my house. A second step is to consider power distributors ("conditioners") that isolate components and are stable conduits over a range of voltage alterations.
After that is done, then power cords can be compared to see if they add anymore to the sound of a system. I have heard significant colorations added by some very expensive PCs.
Those considering after-market cords should try to get a company like Cable Company or another dealer that will allow demos and comparisons over a reasonable period of time.
A final consideration for after-market PCs is that they may last longer than the equipment for which they were purchased. Conservative designs that can work over a wide range of equipment is essential. This type of "compatibility" can be approximated by talking to the cable manufacturers directly for the equipment that they have been tested and used with and with equipment manufacturers when they design and voice their products.

 

[Bernard]

2. Specifically for power cables -
a) The signal does not flow through it

Ultimately the signal DOES flow through it in that if the cord delivers crap to the transformer in the equipment, this gets propagated through to the signal.

b) Do you all realise that the power has travelled through kilometres and kilometres of crappy cable - out in the sun, through substations, transformers, fuses, breakers, etc. How possibliy could tacking a metre or two on the end of this make any difference?

Considering how violently you agreed with me on the infamous Dots thread (i.e. if what you are hearing does not corelate with what you are measuring, then maybe you are measuring the wrong thing), I am surprised that you are not willing to try it.

I agree that all of this stuff should be tried under the condition that it is returnable. Just for the record I bought an exotic but inexpensive power cord on Audiogon, then cut it into two and reterminated it so that I could use the two on my CD transport and DAC. They made no difference, but I am not willing to dismiss power cords outright, especially when rational members like MiTT can hear differences.

 

[Bernard]

Swapping out PC for testing does take time, and as you noted audio memory leaves us very quickly.

I do not necessarily agree that audio memory leaves us very quickly, from personal experience: I changed out the electrolytic capacitors in my DAC for Black Gate capacitors, and did some serious listening but heard no difference, so I concluded that I wasted my money or that it had to break in. Months later I realized that CD's were sounding very much better (and this from another room); I had changed nothing else. My audio memory definitely did not fade quickly. I heard it and liked it, and that's all that matters ! :music:

 

[FISH_MAN]

its funny how this one come up once in a while. I can hear Tomdac saying "use the search Luke"

 

[C.A.P]

Ahh the sincerity of truth . It all comes out eventually ! Tough topic to get in on !

 

[Cherian]

Ultimately the signal DOES flow through it in that if the cord delivers crap to the transformer in the equipment, this gets propagated through to the signal.

Would not a high quality cord transmit the noise more efficiently into the load equipment? That is the purpose of a power cable to transmit what is inputted to it to the other end with as little voltage drop as possible? I have done testing of high quality power cords I will admit they do a better job of transmitting the 60 Hz power and all associated noise from 500 Hz to 100kHZ. You can do this test yourself. Put a function generator between L and N of the high quality power cord and sweep the frequency from 50 Hz to 100kHZ and look for any attenuation. I see very high quality power cord transmit the high frequency more efficiently.

 

[Bernard]

Would not a high quality cord transmit the noise more efficiently into the load equipment?

Agreed. The job of the power cord is to deliver the juice to the equipment while altering it as little as possible. The removal of the high frequency artifacts is the job of the filter network in the equipment (after the rectifiers), and I would rather that it be done there where it is part of the design rather than in a low quality power cable where the functionality is essentially unknown.

 

[spectral]

2. Specifically for power cables -
a) The signal does not flow through it
b) Do you all realise that the power has travelled through kilometres and kilometres of crappy cable - out in the sun, through substations, transformers, fuses, breakers, etc. How possibliy could tacking a metre or two on the end of this make any difference?

The issue is noise suppression which some "high end" power cords attempt to address. Exactly because noise piles up along those kilometers of crappy cable, the waveform is not a perfect sinewave, and voltage fluctuates, cable and line conditioning manufacturers attempt to address one or more of these issues with their products. Truth be told, a very good power supply would not be needing power conditioning at all.

Specific to power cables, they can only try to reduce noise with various, and sometimes questionable, techniques: inline filters, ferrite beads, shielding (perhaps thinking that most of the noise originates from the audio equipment itself, e.g. digital sources), materials that produce a magnetic field when current flows through them (e.g. Eupen wire sold in Europe), etc. Most of these manufacturers will claim that only frequencies in the 50-60Hz range will go through their cable; what they don't tell you is what other effects their cable construction may have (e.g. increased inductance, increased impedance), and what potential deleterious effect these properties may have.

Although I use the ML stock power cords, I do hear line noise if I put my ear right next to the electrostatic panel while it's charged and no music is playing, which dissipated somewhat when I plugged them into the MIT Z Strip - it happens to have a noise reduction circuit in parallel with the line and my guess is they convert the noise to heat (they claim they do not shunt to ground). The remaining noise I hear is probably the transformer itself and/or power supply.

Because of this noise, it doesn't really matter that the signal doesn't really flow through the power cord and the charged stators; the fact remains there is audible low-level noise, due to residual line noise and not top-quality transformer and/or power supply (I noticed this issue when I first purchased the Odysseys). I have fixed the former, I have not addressed the latter.

 

[DTB300]

Months later I realized that CD's were sounding very much better (and this from another room); I had changed nothing else.

My opinion is you "may" have become accustomed to your new sound over time. The only true way to know for sure is to have duplicate equipment and compare side by side.

My audio memory definitely did not fade quickly. I heard it and liked it, and that's all that matters ! :music:

No matter what the reason, you said it right - you liked it.