JL Audio Fathom f113 sub - Anyone using it - with Vantages?

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music again

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Is anyone using the JL Audio Fathom f113 sub with your ML's, especially with Vantages?

What concerns are there with using a non-ML sub with ML speakers?

I've read some phenominal stuff about this sub.

Thanks!

JM
 
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Why?

Hi JM,

Why would you want to buy a sub that costs $3,200 per TAS Issue No. 170, which is relatively close to the used street value of your Vantages.

Regarding your question, there are many good subs, if "tuned" correctly (placement, volume level, x-over and phase settings, etc.), that will work with ML's. The obvious place to start, if you are concerned with the synergy issue, is to look at ML options. However, you should be aware of the fact that seamlessly integrating a sub into a two channel system is difficult at best.

I'm sure other better informed members of this forum, who have experimented with this type setup, will chime in.

IMHO, if you want improved bass (deeper / lower frequency response and better pitch definition) and are looking at a sub that lies within that price range, I suggest that you consider upgrading to a used pair of Summits, which you can pick up for approximately $7,500 to $8,000, depending on finish. Going this route will avoid the sub / room - speaker interface issue and you will save money on interconnects and have one less box in your room.

Good luck and best regards.

GG
 
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From what I have read and heard about the JL it's a killer sub. You can use other manufactured subs as long as you have it setup properly. I myself use a Paradigm Reference Servo-15 v2 with excellent results! :music:
 
Who knows why . . . ?

Thanks for the lead on the other f113 thread. I emailed the "owner" to ask where he's at with the sub, since there hasn't been a post for awhile.

I already have a Descent i in my brand new sytem, BUT my dealer has given me the option to check out the JL Fathom f113 as an alternate. HE actaully uses the f113 in his ML based front end system, but I don't know what speaker model they are. He's invited me over for a listen, and I'm sure to take him up on that!

I just want to get the best sub for my new system, since they are approximately the same $$$$. The Fathom may be a few hundred more.

THANKS for the feedback.

JM
 
Where to begin...

If music is of primary concern, I also recommend upgrading to the Summits before worrying about the subwoofer. (I should note my setup is for both stereo music and HT). In my auditions of the Vantages, I noticed a rather easily detectable mid-bass suckout of sorts. This is a knock, but maybe my only real knock. Don't get me wrong, I still love these speakers. Even with this negative attribute, I found they did too many other things so incredibly well. So, I auditioned 25+ pairs of speakers from double digit brands, and I still chose these, and put a 20% deposit on some Vantages. No speaker is perfect, not the Summits, not anything as far as I am concerned. Anyways, in very large thanks to Kruppy, I now own Summits. I highly recommend installing a direct-line Batphone to Kruppy's residence, he found a Summit deal on Agon that might have sold for around 5.3k(?).

See, a top of the line subwoofer still won't help you much on the mid-bass. Ok, if you do not have this upgrade option:

The JL sub is a fantastic sub. Now, my perceptions of various subs, as always, were highly dependent on room setup. That being said, the JL provided the best transients of any sub I've heard, and is probably the most musical, possibly save for some REL units. (However, I do not enjoy the REL subs I heard in an HT setup). I also thought that the JL had as good, if not the best, pitch definition of any sub I heard. Of the sealed-servo controlled subs I heard, I thought the JL sounded better than both ML's and Velodynes, yet both costing less and coming in a smaller package.

Fwiw, I heard various JL subs matched only with Dynaudio speakers, including with a huge set of Evidence's. I did most of the auditioning with a pair of what I believe* were a pair of Contours (didn't care about speaker hunting anymore, very set on ML's, to the disappointment of the dealer). I've heard the Descent-i in two locations, both setup with Summits. The store where I more intently auditioned the Descent-i ... I don't think they had it setup too well. Very localizable with corner placement, and less defined or muddier than the JL for instance. Which brings us to...

the Room. I'm sure many will agree that the setup/placement can trump the actual unit being used. I know for a fact my room is presently an issue, and have been in a holding pattern about future purchases to deal with bass response, as well as frequency response for my mains, for both the trebles and the bass. I do not use the JL sub in a 2.1 music setup for now, but really look forward to further experimentation in the future, when I have the toys to allow me to do so.

Remember how I said no speaker is perfect? Even with the Summits, on very particular recordings, namely contrapuntal works on piano on a well-recorded disc, the timbral quality of bass lines do not match all of the upper lines. I really mean it when I say very particular recordings, and I do not notice this nearly as much on chamber works, or other recordings in general. I believe the piano is a tough nut to crack, because I don't think any other common instrument has such a balanced and consistent timbre throughout the range. My thoughts anyways. (I think the best timbral consistency throughout the entire range I've ever heard was on B&W's, but otoh, they don't do certain things nearly as well as the ML's). Why do I bother mentioning this? Because even though Im quite confident it is due to the hybrid design of the speaker, I also believe the room is negatively contributing in some way.

Anyways, a lot of opinionated blabber perhaps, but in a nutshell, I agree with Mr. Gordon Gray:

-If you can manage it, take that sub money and get yourself some Summits-

(I know, easier said than done, a good deal might have to be found. MSRP for the JL + Vantages is still thousands less then Summits).

*It seems that your only way of getting this JL is trading in your present sub. If this is not the case, and you can return it with no problems, I can PM you with what I found to be an excellent deal in TX. (Discovered after the aforementioned Dynaudio dealer did not want to budget from msrp).
 
To sub the sub . . . or not to sub at all!

Where to begin...

-If you can manage it, take that sub money and get yourself some Summits-

(I know, easier said than done, a good deal might have to be found. MSRP for the JL + Vantages is still thousands less then Summits).

*It seems that your only way of getting this JL is trading in your present sub. If this is not the case, and you can return it with no problems, I can PM you with what I found to be an excellent deal in TX. (Discovered after the aforementioned Dynaudio dealer did not want to budget from msrp).

Wow, thanks for the commentary. It was helpfull.

I suppose I could just return the Descent i, but even with what I paid for the Vantages, plus the extra money for the sub, I'd still need to come up with probably $4,000 plus and I don't think I could sell that to my significant other. My "original" complete HT "budget" was $5,000!!!! Well you know the story, I walked into my local high end dealer, fell in love with the ML's (formerly had POLK RTA12's from the 1980's!) and four weeks later dropped over $8K for the Vantages, Descent i, Synergy double cabinet, some cables and TV mount with installation. Of couse the Summits recenty went up $1,000 to 11K, which really had me leaning toward the Vantages. Honestly, even though my room size is 15'x19' (speakers are on the long wall), plus another 10' for the foyer, the Summits seemed to overpower the room, as my dealer brought the Summits, Vantages and a Descent to my home to keep for a week. I had him take the Summits away though as they were just too expensive. Believe me, I'm tickled to have got what I got.:D :D :D I figured if I could get away with it, I'd add the best sub I could to the Vantages, because I do feel they need one, even for 2 channel.

Basically I'm set on having a sub in the system, for 2 CH and someday HT. The question remains . . . . Descent i OR Fathom f113?

The "connection" options on the descent i seem more robust and geared toward ML. Being able to hook up the LFE and regular RCA (no XLR - only for LFE) to preamp, and having the crossover decide which one to use seems like a plus. I'm still new to this really and trying to figure all that out. Doesn't seem like the Fathom has as many options.

I will say the Descent i does go low and it can rock. We went to the American Idol concert in town and when we came home set the sub to 6 (out of 11) and played Bon Jovi Blaze of Glory and You Give Love Bad name, cranked up. Now there's a shelf on the wall about 18 feet from the sub. We knocked off an egg shaped wooden plaque from the vibration through the floor!!!

Maybe I'm being too picky here. As I mentioned, my ML dealer uses the JL with his ML based system! I'm not sure which ML's he has, but they are an older model. I have to go over his house and listen before I make any final descision which sub to go with.

Any additional comments are welcome. I'm heading to play some music right now . . . . :rocker:

JM
 
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My pleasure.

And welcome to the club.

Yes, I know "the story". Sounds veeerrrry familiar. I am sure you will enjoy the Vantages for years to come. And even if Summits might* be better for music than Vantages+sub, you did mention elsewhere that this is going to be your HT as well, right? Combined with budget restraints (or lack thereof:p ), perhaps this is best... Always tough decisions I guess...

Yes, it seems the ML sub has better connectivity, namely the hi-level inputs. For me, the smaller size of the JL, its looks, and significantly smaller price tag (in my case at least), made it that much easier of a personal decision. The JL has one e.l.f. trim, where the ML has two trim levels at 25 and 50hz, I believe. The JL comes with a single-band automated EQ with mic. Its indeed helpful, but would be rendered a moot point with the addition of any BM unit such as Velodyne SMS-1, or some other frequency correcting device such as an Audyssey unit.

In any case, you can't go wrong!

And btw, what a cool dealer you have, let's you take a bunch of pricey stuff in your home, and that takes it back for you? Then invites you over. Very cool. After you listen to his rig, please post your thoughts. Or, maybe I will pose the same question that Aragorn did to Gandalf, "What does your heart tell you?"....:meditate:
 
JL sub

Stereophile has a great review in the september issue on the 13" JL sub. The F113, not cheap at $3400 and woofer excursion of 4 inches!! , will deliver any kind of bass requested from the source music. According to the review, once the sub is properly set up ( which takes time), it is an accurate sub and enhances the 3D effect in music.
 
The addition of a sub to my system was the hardest of all components to choose. I value 2-channel most, but like HT as well. So double duty for all my components. I home auditioned and store auditioned these subs: RELs, JL Audio, ML Descent and Depth. I liked the REL fine for music but could not cut it for HT. The JL Audio was a fine powerful sub but I did not think it integrated as well with ML speakers and it was more $ than I wanted to spend for $5k speakers. I thought the Depth i integrated better in my room for 2-channel music and the Descent i was more sub than I needed for my room. For music I am at about 4.5 on volume and maybe 6 for some hard stuff in HT. There are some ML employees that prefer the Depth i over the Descent i for music. They (and now me) feel that the 8" cones keep up better with the quick xstat panels. Of course the Vantages are 8" as well and that helps with the integration as well. Try the Depth i in your system.

I came close to upgrading to Summitts, but thought they would be over kill for my size room. Plus my system is sounding so good right now. I don't feel like changing but just enjoying my system and exploring new music. Just say "NO to Joeyitis". ;)
 
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I highly recommend installing a direct-line Batphone to Kruppy's residence, he found a Summit deal on Agon that might have sold for around 5.3k(?).

You forgot that it was Kruppy and I who kept pushing and pushing you on the thread to return the Vantage and get the Summit! Heheheh....

Anyway, the debate that is Vantage + subwoofer vs Summit + none is pretty age old. I know that Dave (twich) has the Vantage with a DD15 subwoofer and he absolutely raves about that combo. I, for one, went with the Summits instead of adding a subwoofer to my prior Vantages.

Of course, this is not to say that I dont *want* to add a sub to my Summits... but the lack of funds prevents me from doing so. There have been several occassions where I was || this close to pulling the trigger and nuking my checking account for a DD18.

I still gotta get vinyl...

Joey :)
 
Anyone considering the 113 should take a look at the SVS PB13 Ultra.

http://www.svsound.com/index.cfm

Even the ML forum is not immune from the SVS Ultra plug! Why does every thread involving JL always get an SVS plug?

The JL is servo controlled for less distortion, the SVS is not.
The JL is sealed for more gradual roll-off, the SVS has 3 ports.
The JL has much better looks or WAF at only half the volume of the Ultra.

Its so happened so many times, and I don't think a single person promoting the SVS product, that I have noticed, has even heard it yet!

No offense to you DrJRapp, but this does keep happening. Actually not just for JL threads, but ANY SUB thread, including Martin Logan, REL, you name it.

Even the AVS mods got sick of it, here's a "sticky" warning to SVS trolls at the sub forum, 5k views:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842819

The SVS direct-marketers are something else. I don't think I can think of any other group that is as rabid. Maybe PS3 folks, but even that group might pale in comparison.

Yes, I am thoroughly sick of gratuitous SVS plugs. I know, there's not much I can do about it.
 
You forgot that it was Kruppy and I who kept pushing and pushing you on the thread to return the Vantage and get the Summit! Heheheh....

Anyway, the debate that is Vantage + subwoofer vs Summit + none is pretty age old. I know that Dave (twich) has the Vantage with a DD15 subwoofer and he absolutely raves about that combo. I, for one, went with the Summits instead of adding a subwoofer to my prior Vantages.

Of course, this is not to say that I dont *want* to add a sub to my Summits... but the lack of funds prevents me from doing so. There have been several occassions where I was || this close to pulling the trigger and nuking my checking account for a DD18.

I still gotta get vinyl...

Joey :)

I did temporarily forget. But now that my memory is jogged, I do remember very well. Thanks for spreading your disease.:eek: No, Im only half-joking, I am so glad that I got the Summits. They Are Simply Wonderful. *Hi-five*

Yup, all of the products mentioned here are surely all of fine quality, and indeed there are "many ways to skin a cat"...
 
Its so happened so many times, and I don't think a single person promoting the SVS product, that I have noticed, has even heard it yet!


Yes, I am thoroughly sick of gratuitous SVS plugs. I know, there's not much I can do about it.

I only mentioned it as a lower cost alternative one may want to consider. I have owned 2 SVS subs; a powered cylinder, then a dual 12" PB 12+2 and I currently have a PB13 Ultra on order. The dual 12" blended extremely well with my Summits. Perhaps this because of the uncanny similarity of the PB 12.3 drivers to those in the Summit, they are nearly identical, except for size. It almost looks like they came from, or were designed by, the same source .

Before ordering my Ultra I auditioned the JL f113 under what I consider unfavorable conditions (an Auto Audio installation shop is the only dealer in my area)...I wasn't $3400 worth of impressed, not even $2K worth of impressed.....but once again that could be due to the conditions or the setup.

I'm certainly not an SVS troll, just a very satisfied owner/user. I've been around this forum since I purchased my Summits a while ago ( a lot longer than you have) and up till this post have found everyone to be honerable, amiable and polite. We all have the right to disagree, I just believe there isn't any need to do it disagreeably.
 
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I'm sorry about my behavior, DrJRapp. I blew up:confused: I don't doubt at all that their subs are truly awesome. Please excuse the gratuitous vent. There are others at various forums with whom I've had a lot of correspondence that do very happily own them.

I've seen your posts here before, and did not really suspect you to be a troll or marketer. I hope to have an amiable rapport with you, please excuse me.

-jk319
 
It's good to see that we can say what we want to say on this forum, and move on. I enjoy learning about all the many ways I can spend my hard earned money on stereo equipment! There are as many answers to my questions as there are members on this forum. I personally like to hear as many suggestions as possible. This allows me to do my own research, while keeping in the back of my head, the "opinions" I read here. Keep the post coming everyone . . . .

In the mean time I was thinking about the Summits versus Vantage/Descent i possibility and my wife was ready to call the looney bin squad to pick me up! She said for what I've put my dealer through thus far, there is NO way I should ask him to do that swap! I guess I agree. So it's the Vantages and a sub . . . which leads me to my original question . . . . the Descent i or the JL Fathom f113? (You see my replacement Descent i still sits at the dealer waiting for my answer. They carry the JL as well).

I'm hoping to hear back from my dealer on Monday to see if I can audition the JL at his home sometime next week. So much equipment . . . so little time.

Hey, I can always use the Vantages for surrounds later on. I think I hear the looney squad in my drive way. Gotta go . . . .

JM
 
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It's good to see that we can say what we want to say on this forum, and move on. I enjoy learning about all the many ways I can spend my hard earned money on stereo equipment! There are as many answers to my questions as there are members on this forum. I personally like to hear as many suggestions as possible. This allows me to do my own research, while keeping in the back of my head, the "opinions" I read here. Keep the post coming everyone . . . .

In the mean time I was thinking about the Summits versus Vantage/Descent i possibility and my wife was ready to call the looney bin squad to pick me up! She said for what I've put my dealer through thus far, there is NO way I should ask him to do that swap! I guess I agree. So it's the Vantages and a sub . . . which leads me to my original question . . . . the Descent i or the JL Fathom f113? (You see my replacement Descent i still sits at the dealer waiting for my answer. They carry the JL as well).

I'm hoping to hear back from my dealer on Monday to see if I can audition the JL at his home sometime next week. So much equipment . . . so little time.

Hey, I can always use the Vantages for surrounds later on. I think I hear the looney squad in my drive way. Gotta go . . . .

JM

Vantages + Descent i = Heaven.
 
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