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May I pipe up and throw in an answer?

First off, I'll start by saying I have not heard the Sanders amps so I can't comment, but I have heard my primary choice [the REF610T] with electrostatics [the original Summit] hence my posting.

But the crux of the issue [for me] is this - the Sanders comes from someone who is primarily a great speaker designer NOT an amplifier designer. His primary specialty is designing speakers and he is not noted for his amplifier prowess.

Again, I'll say I have not heard the amps, let alone the amps with electrostatics, but [again, for me] this is at least a little bit significant. I don't know why - it sounds stupid - but someone who is a great speaker designer can't design good amplification / electronics? Somehow, yes. And in every case I've heard, this has been confirmed (and vice versa). To put this into perspective, I don't see ARC with a lineup of speakers (and if they did, I can't see myself getting too excited about them). Similarly, I don't see ML building amps or other electronics.

I'm sure there are exceptions (Meridian?), but I haven't heard them. Two that spring to mind are Krell's lineup of speakers about 10 years ago (yuk) and a Quad amplifer that was a horrid clattery abberation!

This is where most of you go off the rails, and fail to understand the very, very tight coupling between amp and speaker on ESL technologies.

Let me share some insights gleaned over the past 20 years of following ESL tech and reading really great books, like Rogers own “the Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook”. So far, the definitive tome on the subject available to the public, and with entire chapters focused on electronics.

Unlike pretty much any other speaker, ESL speakers present many challenges to an amplifier:
  • High Capacitance (several thousand pF)
  • High capacitance reactance
  • Amp is driving a step-up transformer
  • Incredibly varying resistance (dropping with increasing freq.)
  • High demand for voltage AND current
  • Large back-EMF currents

Since the power amp design is a critical component in the ESL circuit (in any topology, an amp is part of the electro-mechanical circuit, but in ESL’s many more interdependent variables exist), designers like Roger have been studying their effects since day one. Roger has indeed been designing amps since 1974, including a pretty massive direct-drive amp. The current Sanders ESL monoblocks can match or outperform those DD beasts.

Also, one can’t seriously design ESL’s without some regard to the electronics that will drive them or of the interactions of the ESL electronics. Both Innersound and Sanders speakers have been used with all kinds of amps.

So calling Roger just a ‘Speaker designer’ is a serious injustice, and ignores his long (and well documented) history with electronics design.

The knocks against other electronics design houses that try and produce speakers is likely accurate, as good speaker design is indeed a challenge to get right. I’ve yet to hear an amp house that then produced a great speaker (that I've personaly heard), Carvers 'Amazing' came close though.

Now, companies that specialize in vertical integration, exemplified by the best of the breed (IMHO) Meridian, do succeed. But I believe their success is largely driven by the HUGE benefit of controlling all parameters of the SYSTEM. So when the designer can control cabinet, drivers, crossover (actives in this case) and amps as well as sources (the 800 and G-series), they can indeed produce knock-out results.
It’s not that their amp topologies are so innovative or overbuilt, or that their speakers are designed with the care, say KEF expends, it’s that the ability to coordinate at an R&D level yields such huge payoffs, the rest is secondary.

Having highly customized speakers, crossover and such in my own rig, I certainly understand the value of systematic design.

Finally, Roger Sanders does do systemic design and sells holistic solutions, such as the 10b, which includes a sophisticated active crossover and bass amp as part of the package. Layer on his ESL (or larger monoblocks) amps and you have a cohesive, integrated solution.

Read some of the reviews of his recent appearance at the AudiogoN THE show
 
Hello All

Thanks JohnFo for your accurate description of the Sanders design approach. I agree that it is easier to design a great amplifier as opposed to a loudspeaker. The Magtech is basically a ESL amp with a regulated power supply and it does make a difference driving the ESL section of the model 10's. Mainly at the top end reproducing loud transients, I attribute this to the regulated supply. As far as "cost no object" is concerned, driving the loudspeakers I own, I can't think of a more suitable candidate. I still own my previous speakers (Audire 1's, full range push-pull magnetic planers) and will try them with the Magtech's just for "kicks". I will update with pictures and how it sounds.
 
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