Introduction Of New ML Models Too Quick ??

[C.A.P]

For what its worth I do not think Martin Logan planned on the Spires being so good at their first design onset. With that being said they may have not been selling as many of them as they thought they should to re coup. Remember there is a second driver and such in them. More cost to build less profit than the Spire maybe.

Having not heard the Spire the Summit still is the best Hybrid I have heard.

 

[SundayNiagara]

"Summit X, at $15K, seems dead in the water to me, especially if there is no upgrade path for existing owners. People will either buy the Spire with the new CLX crossover at under $10K or reach for the CLX at a little over $20K. This means death to the Summit."

See my first post on page 1 of this thread.

 

[David Matz]

"Summit X, at $15K, seems dead in the water to me, especially if there is no upgrade path for existing owners. People will either buy the Spire with the new CLX crossover at under $10K or reach for the CLX at a little over $20K. This means death to the Summit."

See my first post on page 1 of this thread.

SundayNiagara,

Have you seen this post?

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7436

Looks like ML has killed the Summit to drive the Summit owners/ wannabe's to the CLX.

 

[User211]

The Summits are much more transparent in my opinion.
The soundstage on the CLS much much wider and deeper.
To me the background was much quieter on the CLS.
At this point I don't know if I'm going to hang on to both.

Interested to see what you think - but with 18 year old panels, I think you are almost going to "fall over" when you hear the new ones. I have never been able to listen to a panel older than 7 years without having to replace them!

 

[SundayNiagara]

SundayNiagara,

Have you seen this post?

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7436

Looks like ML has killed the Summit to drive the Summit owners/ wannabe's to the CLX.

Thanks, I just read that. However, my source doesn't work for a rep firm. I'll check with him tomorrow.

 

[SundayNiagara]

I am told there will be an upgrade!

 

[marck]

I am told there will be an upgrade!

Good, good.

And is it true that it will not be quite a full upgrade to the X version?
Thx

 

[SundayNiagara]

Good, good.

And is it true that it will not be quite a full upgrade to the X version?
Thx

I'll know more on this tomorrow, (Friday).

 

[Lexicon Logan]

I'll know more on this tomorrow, (Friday).

Cant wait!!:rocker:

 

[David Matz]

I'll know more on this tomorrow, (Friday).

Sunday,

Please share... I would guess and hope that eventually this cross over upgrade would be available to everyone. Innovations from the flagship product usually trickle down the product line, and manufacturers can get a nice revenue stream in the door. However, it is not always the case. The BAT 51SE can't be upgraded. You have to buy the 52 SE, which is upgradable to the REX.

I would be all over this for my Vantages. Replacing them with a significantly more expensive new speaker for a 10-20% improvement may not be the best way to spend the upgrade dollar, so ML is gambling here both from a revenue and a customer satisfaction perspective.

Also, I am looking toward your impressions of the CLX with ARC (and other equipment if you get a chance to A/B).

Thanks

 

[SundayNiagara]

Sunday,

Please share... I would guess and hope that eventually this cross over upgrade would be available to everyone. Innovations from the flagship product usually trickle down the product line, and manufacturers can get a nice revenue stream in the door. However, it is not always the case. The BAT 51SE can't be upgraded. You have to buy the 52 SE, which is upgradable to the REX.

I would be all over this for my Vantages. Replacing them with a significantly more expensive new speaker for a 10-20% improvement may not be the best way to spend the upgrade dollar, so ML is gambling here both from a revenue and a customer satisfaction perspective.

Also, I am looking toward your impressions of the CLX with ARC (and other equipment if you get a chance to A/B).

Thanks

Please excuse me for neglecting to ask about the upgrade, as I was wrapped up in the sound of the ARC Ref3 and Ref210-driven CLX's. The digital front end was dCS. I couldn't tell you the models, as I am unfamiliar with them. The sound, on a variety of light rock, jazz and blues from Chuck Mangione, Patricia Barber, Jackson Brown, Dr John, Rev Billy C Wirtz, Grateful Dead, Dire Straights and others, was magnificent. Very wide and deep soundstage, with pinpoint imaging and harmonically rich sounding, but not overly lush, (tubey).

I'm, as you can see, not good at reviewing, so my advice to those of you living in South Florida is to get to Front Row Center in Pompano Beach and hear them for yourself.

For anyone else, find an ML dealer that also sells ARC.

Those of you living in the Philly area are lucky, as Overture has the Ref 610T mono blocks.

PS: Eliot Goldman, the owner of FRC tells me that the 610T's are on the radar screen. I can't wait!

PPS: I'll try to get the upgrade info over the weekend.

 

[Craig]

Yes, it's a concern to me too. Continual model changeovers say one of two things to me:

1: Planned obsolesence (ie - making a fool of the consumer)

or;

2: The original model was poorly thought over and released before it was perfected.

Both are very bad. .

1. I don't considered the discontinued models to be obsolete at all. They are all still great models. I have a pair of the CLSIIz's and they're wonderful, original panels and all.

2. Just because they found some improvements doesn't imply the original model was poorly designed.

It doesn't bother me that a replacement was released 3 years after I bought my speakers. That doesn't make them suddenly bad speakers.

 

[Craig]

I was the benefactor of one of those Great Deals.


Craig has had both longer than I have, so his comparisons on the 2 will be more accurate.

I aquired the CLS a week ago and spent about 5 days listening to and comparing both the Summits and CLS.

The Summits are much more transparent in my opinion.
The soundstage on the CLS much much wider and deeper.
To me the background was much quieter on the CLS.
At this point I don't know if I'm going to hang on to both.
If I had a spare room I would,(too many kids)

Currently I've taken the CLS apart to restain,(with some guidance from C.A.P.), and since the panels were made 18 years ago I'm ordering new panels tomorrow.


Not Better, Different.
Although in terms of Hybrids the Summits are much better than my old Odysseys IMHO

I find the CLS to be the most transparent ML speaker I've heard. The soundstage is a little deeper and wider but the imaging is more focused on the CLS and toe in can effect imaging.
I find the background to be about the same. I think the equipment and the room have a lot to do with the background levels. The Summits are more dynamic but I think that comes from very good blending of the panels with the woofers.

I have my CLSIIz's currently playing very well right now and have the Descent i tuned just how I like it with very tight controlled bass with the level on the low side to ensure it is enough to feel and not so much that it overloads the room.

I have my Summits in one room and the CLSIIZ in a separate semi-dedicated room. They are both great and I could live with just one of these setups but who wants to dissemble a fine sounding setup? I came close to ordering new panels for the CLSIIz's but the orginals still amaze me.

Summits are more dynamic. The CLSIIz are more of a you are there but your speakers are not kind of transparency.

My conclusion...The CLSIIz with a Descent i and all is tuned including room treatments it's a toss-up between that and a well setup pair of Summits. WIth the price of the discontinued Summit being as low as it .It them becomes a toss up beween these systems. But a main difference is...

CLSIIz - much more transparent.
Summits - more dynamic with ESL qualities

 

[Bernard]

1. I don't considered the discontinued models to be obsolete at all. They are all still great models. I have a pair of the CLSIIz's and they're wonderful, original panels and all.

2. Just because they found some improvements doesn't imply the original model was poorly designed.

It doesn't bother me that a replacement was released 3 years after I bought my speakers. That doesn't make them suddenly bad speakers.

Excellent points. All very true.

 

[amey01]

1. I don't considered the discontinued models to be obsolete at all. They are all still great models. I have a pair of the CLSIIz's and they're wonderful, original panels and all.

2. Just because they found some improvements doesn't imply the original model was poorly designed.

No, but it does imply that it could have been better. And for $AUD24,000, I don't want to hear that shortly after I've purchased! Do you?

 

[Bernard]

No, but it does imply that it could have been better. And for $AUD24,000, I don't want to hear that shortly after I've purchased! Do you?

But that is the nature of development. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and go to production. Subsequent to that you think up a new circuit configuration or find a new component that sounds better. Are you going to discard what you have found just so as to not upset the people who have already bought the product ? If there is an opportunity to take to production what you have found, you do so.

 

[tonepub]

Considering the amount of development time that went into the CLX, I would be very surprised if ML came out with a replacement in a short period of time.

Though a pair of multi panel subwoofers might be fun, to extend the CLX's range down to about 25hz. Hmmmm....

 

[Feltran]

Do you suppose it would be possible for them to make a viable speaker with Spire-like dimensions, where the top half was a standard electrostatic panel, and the bottom half was a flat bass panel?

 

[RichTeer]

Do you suppose it would be possible for them to make a viable speaker with Spire-like dimensions, where the top half was a standard electrostatic panel, and the bottom half was a flat bass panel?

I don't think so. I'd think that the bass panel would be too small in such a config to have the desired effect.

 

[Lexicon Logan]

Please excuse me for neglecting to ask about the upgrade, as I was wrapped up in the sound of the ARC Ref3 and Ref210-driven CLX's. The digital front end was dCS. I couldn't tell you the models, as I am unfamiliar with them. The sound, on a variety of light rock, jazz and blues from Chuck Mangione, Patricia Barber, Jackson Brown, Dr John, Rev Billy C Wirtz, Grateful Dead, Dire Straights and others, was magnificent. Very wide and deep soundstage, with pinpoint imaging and harmonically rich sounding, but not overly lush, (tubey).

I'm, as you can see, not good at reviewing, so my advice to those of you living in South Florida is to get to Front Row Center in Pompano Beach and hear them for yourself.

For anyone else, find an ML dealer that also sells ARC.

Those of you living in the Philly area are lucky, as Overture has the Ref 610T mono blocks.

PS: Eliot Goldman, the owner of FRC tells me that the 610T's are on the radar screen. I can't wait!

PPS: I'll try to get the upgrade info over the weekend.