For those of you that have at least started out with this toe in/out, have found that the best position you ended up with had MORE or LESS toe in/out applied ? I’ve been at that approx position but am leaning towards a bit more toe in as I’ve noticed that about 2 feet behind the flashlight 1/3 position is a bit better soundstage than my ‘ideal’ one. Thoughts ?
Impressions Setup - Flashlight Technique
- Thread starter Furbyland
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Lightloopy
Well-known member
Sounds like you are in the right direction. The flashlight method is a reasonable starting point but you are clearly listening for the best results. Trust your ears. Same applies to the other positioning parameters. Enjoy.
For a couple years mine have been extremely toed-in with the flashlight being about 1/4 inside of the OUTER edge. I've been sitting a little closer than equidistant. But, both speakers are not mirror images of each other. The right speaker is about 4-1/2" farther from the front wall than the left. Why? Center of image. Watch the video referenced below.
I came across a speaker setup explanation presented at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. I was hesitant to try it for months after watching the video, but then I decided it was time. No tools, only ears. I did exactly what was said in the video and came away with a great soundstage. My room is a multi-purpose great-room with the system close to the right wall, so the left speaker is in the middle of the front wall. Nothing equal about it. But the soundstage is great! I get fooled often by sound emanating from beyond the speakers, and this has been with minimal room treatment (which I'm currently working on, so I'll need to re-tweak the speakers).
I highly suggest watching the entire video, otherwise know that you'll be missing some great info. But the speaker setup begins at 18:05 minutes into the video.
So I'm using physical placement for centering the image, not using Levels.
Watch the video and play the song that's mentioned.
The processor levels for both channels are equal.
The processor distance settings for both channels are equal.
The physical distance of each speaker is not the same.
The Toe Angle of each speaker is not exactly the same (distance changes the flashlight incidence so can't be used the same way, but it's close).
The Rake Angles are the same.
I came across a speaker setup explanation presented at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. I was hesitant to try it for months after watching the video, but then I decided it was time. No tools, only ears. I did exactly what was said in the video and came away with a great soundstage. My room is a multi-purpose great-room with the system close to the right wall, so the left speaker is in the middle of the front wall. Nothing equal about it. But the soundstage is great! I get fooled often by sound emanating from beyond the speakers, and this has been with minimal room treatment (which I'm currently working on, so I'll need to re-tweak the speakers).
I highly suggest watching the entire video, otherwise know that you'll be missing some great info. But the speaker setup begins at 18:05 minutes into the video.
So I'm using physical placement for centering the image, not using Levels.
Watch the video and play the song that's mentioned.
The processor levels for both channels are equal.
The processor distance settings for both channels are equal.
The physical distance of each speaker is not the same.
The Toe Angle of each speaker is not exactly the same (distance changes the flashlight incidence so can't be used the same way, but it's close).
The Rake Angles are the same.
Lightloopy
Well-known member
Thanks for posting this video. I also found it very helpful. In the end, it's ok for the speakers not to be exactly the same distances and the fine tuning is all done by ear.
As he says in the video, planar speakers are more sensitive side to side than front to back distance.
I need the back wall to be 12-18” from speaker for the panel.....BUT i need to tame the woofer boom but having the speaker (Monoliths) farther out in the room . Ahhh, compromises.
I need the back wall to be 12-18” from speaker for the panel.....BUT i need to tame the woofer boom but having the speaker (Monoliths) farther out in the room . Ahhh, compromises.
Awesome response. Have you, or do you use ML ARC along with this? I ask, because currently I have a loaded ARC profile in each speaker. Wonder if I should remove, do this process, then redo ARC, or, forgo all together?
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Whenever I move a speaker, ARC is always disabled and becomes meaningless in its new location. After maneuvering the speakers into place I then enable ARC on the speakers and run the ARC app for a fresh correction. It's easy enough to run ARC and I have found it to be better with ARC than without. Plus, I run Dirac on the processor and it smooths out the bass even more, but I only let Dirac correct below 400-500Hz, and it varies based upon how Dirac's measurement looks. The main thing I am after here is to not let Dirac correct much of what comes from the stat panels. If I had a different room, different layout, my opinion on this could likely be different, but this is what I've found works for me.
Makes total sense. Thank you!
Fidji99
Well-known member
My life hack for toe-in - I use 2 stickers - one in front was used to have exact match to 1/3 distance [so aligning with flaslight]
Now I find much ore useful to align sticker on the back with panel side - if I have stickers on both speakers in the same distance visually, I know I am doing it right [flaslight is a bit crude for me, as I am symmetry freak]
Now I find much ore useful to align sticker on the back with panel side - if I have stickers on both speakers in the same distance visually, I know I am doing it right [flaslight is a bit crude for me, as I am symmetry freak]
Lightloopy
Well-known member
The video set up from RMAF was helpful to me in that it allowed me to relax and just tune the placement by ear. Things may not line up but that's ok as long as it sounds fine to you. I have found that the final settings I play with are toe in and sliding the seat back and forth a bit. Run the ARC and I'm done.
I know this is a bit aged now. And I was in on some of the knowledge exchange, I’m all of a sudden questioning my rake (angle). It seems I’ve noticed again, if I stand a foot behind my, I thought, perfect listening position that I get just ever so more of the sweet spot. How is the proper way to adjust? I think the feet (?) are able to be screwed in or out to accommodate more or less rake. Or are there special dedicated new fangled ones? It seems I can never be satisfied. Fiddle till I f it up I guess.
If the existing feet adjust enough and are stable then there is nothing wrong with them.
As far as the rake angle is concerned, that is a personal preference.
For me, I adjust the panel do that if you put a 90 degree square on the center vertically on the panel it would be point at your ear height.
My feeling is this way you are receiving the sound waves from the upper and lower part of the panel at the same time. As I said its personal. Others will have different preferences.
As far as toe in is concerned. I have recently gone from the speakers being toed in 1" to being almost 5 inches. This is clearly connected to how far back from the speakers your listening position is.
As far as the rake angle is concerned, that is a personal preference.
For me, I adjust the panel do that if you put a 90 degree square on the center vertically on the panel it would be point at your ear height.
My feeling is this way you are receiving the sound waves from the upper and lower part of the panel at the same time. As I said its personal. Others will have different preferences.
As far as toe in is concerned. I have recently gone from the speakers being toed in 1" to being almost 5 inches. This is clearly connected to how far back from the speakers your listening position is.
I like the use of the square. Now if I can find mine, I'm going to give it a try. My ML11's and my seated listening position, form nearly an equilateral triangle. I'm a bit more back from that, but not a lot. I still at times stand exactly behind my seated listening position and find it being "better' most of the time. That to me means I probably need more toe in (?). Or out? I know, I know. Play with it and find out. I'd just like to at least start in the right direction as moving is a pain.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Interesting idea Brad! I'll try that, with a laser pointer taped onto the horizontal portion of the square, and placed at the center of the panel. I'll sit at the main listening position, have my wife aim the laser at me, to see if it hits above or below my ears. I can adjust rake angle accordingly (or alternatively move the sofa forward or backwards a bit). This should work, assuming she doesn't blind me in the process!
Doug033
Member
A couple of months ago, I purchased Paul McGowans book “The Audiophiles Guide: The Loudspeaker” and it’s accompanying test file from PS Audio’s web site.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/th...gPzCyWavyh2nS3KbSf-L8u-yzfQjwJuBoCbBoQAvD_BwEThe book walks the reader through the different aspects of placement using appropriate tracks from the test disk. While I didn’t make any changes greater than 6” I ended up with a wider soundstage and a much more relaxed, “organic” sound from my CLSs. The final placement ended up 14” from the side walls, the outside of the fames moved forward to 41” from the front wall and the inside of the frames are at 34” (14.5 degrees toe-in). Speakers are dead vertical, with centers 92“ apart and 93” from my ears.
The process took me only about an hour and was well worth the small investment.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/th...gPzCyWavyh2nS3KbSf-L8u-yzfQjwJuBoCbBoQAvD_BwEThe book walks the reader through the different aspects of placement using appropriate tracks from the test disk. While I didn’t make any changes greater than 6” I ended up with a wider soundstage and a much more relaxed, “organic” sound from my CLSs. The final placement ended up 14” from the side walls, the outside of the fames moved forward to 41” from the front wall and the inside of the frames are at 34” (14.5 degrees toe-in). Speakers are dead vertical, with centers 92“ apart and 93” from my ears.
The process took me only about an hour and was well worth the small investment.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
I'm thinking of getting Paul's book and test disk. Unfortunately, I was a backer for Jim Smith's Through the Sound Barrier Kickstarter campaign 10 years ago. It raised over $92,000, but he never delivered the videos and test disks. He stopped posting updates over a year ago, but never offered even a partial refund. I'll wait for more reviews about Paul's book before deciding if it's worth it. At least it's a shipping product!
Doug033
Member
P.S. I’ll share a great time-saving hack for those with carpet. For each speaker, I cut a 3/4 piece of plywood to match the footprint of the speaker and its interface. I also attached four self-adhesive 3.5” carpet gliders (available at Home Depot) to the bottom of each board and two cabinet handles to the top. With the speakers resting on top, it was easy to slide them into different orientations and hear the results instantly.
Leporello
Well-known member
I have found that to be true in my room. I spent lots of time fiddling with my placement but once I found one that seems to work in my room for most recordings, I haven't touched it for a while. It is not a symmetric placement, though only another OCD audiophile would notice.
Subwoofer placement is another issue, though. Still a work in progress.
