I got sucked in...

[dsiroky]

ok, think I'm going to

a) buy an SPL from radioshack and run some test tones
- anyone have some test tones in a wave/wma/mp3 file that I can use?

b) then if necessary put in bass traps

c) definately return the ML & instead build my own sub

and then I should be happy right?

 

[IWalker]

That sounds like a reasonable place to start, though if you find peaks and nulls, you're going to need some way to even them out. Bass traps are ideal, as you're not messing with the power being fed to the sub...but are generally bulky, and harder to gauge the impact on response in my experience. I would say, if you can get your money back, and you're willing (want to) build your own, then take back what you've got, and build it.

Don't spend money on the traps or an EQ until you hear the sub in your room, and run test tones on it. You will likely need either or both, but no point in spending the money till you need it.

Then, run test tones through it, once you have it crossed over where you want it (80Hz is what I use...it's pretty standard...you can cross over up to around 100 without bad results with the kit sub) and see what your response looks like. Moving the sub around can change that as well, so try that a little bit to see if it helps.

If you need to tame some peaks or lower a small null, a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro can do that for you for around $100. The SMS-1 can do it as well (and is more user friendly, but costs much more)

That combo should cost you less, and greatly outperform your other alternatives in the price range, if you're willing to put in the work to build your own box.

 

[DTB300]

That sounds like a reasonable place to start, though if you find peaks and nulls, you're going to need some way to even them out. Bass traps are ideal, as you're not messing with the power being fed to the sub...but are generally bulky, and harder to gauge the impact on response in my experience. I would say, if you can get your money back, and you're willing (want to) build your own, then take back what you've got, and build it..

Bass Traps are harder to guage for those not in the know. That is why you discuss your room with Ethan or Glenn after showing them room drawings, running test tones, viewing the graphs and waterfall charts. Then the proper trapping can be done. Otherwise it is just spending money guessing on what to do. Just as the OP has done with purchasing a sub, sending back, purchasing another sub, sending it back, building his own sub, and on and on.

Don't spend money on the traps or an EQ until you hear the sub in your room, and run test tones on it. You will likely need either or both, but no point in spending the money till you need it.

If the room is an issue, and most rooms are, then no matter what sub you put in there, the peaks and nulls will still be there. Peaks and nulls in a room are a direct relationship of the room modes - width, heigth, length along with speaker placement and seating position. Other items that affect are funiture, type of walls, type of ceilings, and on and on. New components will not correct room issues.

Moving the sub around can change that as well, so try that a little bit to see if it helps.

Moving the sub around the room is one of the best ways to get the best response you can. Once you get it to a place that sounds the best to you, you can then see the response graphs and waterfall graphs of this position. Move the sub around again, run graphs, etc.

If you need to tame some peaks or lower a small null, a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro can do that for you for around $100. The SMS-1 can do it as well (and is more user friendly, but costs much more)

I agree, the Behringer is another fine piece of equipment to help. Reducing peaks is something to be done, but raising nulls is not. This is where all the things with the room and the system is driving the response problems.

Top of the line subs will not solve a problem with a room, but a bad sub will sound bad even in a good room.

Dan

 

[Peter Hogan]

ok, think I'm going to buy an SPL from radioshack and run some test tones
- anyone have some test tones in a wave/wma/mp3 file that I can use?

Hi,
You can try here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
It is a free program that will help you equalize your room. I've used it and it works very well.

Peter

 

[IWalker]

Bass Traps are harder to guage for those not in the know. That is why you discuss your room with Ethan or Glenn after showing them room drawings, running test tones, viewing the graphs and waterfall charts. Then the proper trapping can be done. Otherwise it is just spending money guessing on what to do. Just as the OP has done with purchasing a sub, sending back, purchasing another sub, sending it back, building his own sub, and on and on.


If the room is an issue, and most rooms are, then no matter what sub you put in there, the peaks and nulls will still be there. Peaks and nulls in a room are a direct relationship of the room modes - width, heigth, length along with speaker placement and seating position. Other items that affect are funiture, type of walls, type of ceilings, and on and on. New components will not correct room issues.


Moving the sub around the room is one of the best ways to get the best response you can. Once you get it to a place that sounds the best to you, you can then see the response graphs and waterfall graphs of this position. Move the sub around again, run graphs, etc.


I agree, the Behringer is another fine piece of equipment to help. Reducing peaks is something to be done, but raising nulls is not. This is where all the things with the room and the system is driving the response problems.

Top of the line subs will not solve a problem with a room, but a bad sub will sound bad even in a good room.

Dan

True...you can contact the people in the know and have a better indication of what effect bass trapping will have on your room. You still have some ugly and expensive bass traps in your room, before you even know if you need them. They very well may be the only thing that could help whatever problem it is you're having...but your problem could very well not be room related either. Spending money before you do the other steps doesn't make sense to me. If you WANT big ugly bass traps in your room, then by all means. I'd only do it if I saw a need.

Agreed, taming peaks is MUCH better than boosting nulls, but boosting smaller nulls can be done without much adverse effect. If moving the sub or bass trapping could achieve the same result, it would be more desirable (though the look and cost of bass trapping weighs into that equation as well) It is essentially the same as treating the rest of the response as a peak, and taming that, and then raising the entire power level for the system to match. As long as you don't boost so much that you significantly increase distortion (which is dependent on how hard you drive the sub as well) then you should be fine.

I'm sure it comes across that I don't like bass trapping...that's not the case. I just don't think it's for everyone, based on WAF/looks and budget. (considerintg the extra $300 can get you a descent over a depth right now...I think the money is better spent there, and EQing)

My main point was what you said last. A crappy sub is going to sound crappy no matter what. Get a good sub, test it...and work from there. Don't work backwards, and spend a bunch of money trying to make the room sound good for a crap sub.

 

[IWalker]

Hi,
You can try here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
It is a free program that will help you equalize your room. I've used it and it works very well.

Peter

That's what I use. It does work very well.

 

[DTB300]

I'm sure it comes across that I don't like bass trapping...that's not the case. I just don't think it's for everyone, based on WAF/looks and budget. (considerintg the extra $300 can get you a descent over a depth right now...I think the money is better spent there, and EQing).

No not at all. I read into it that you agree with trapping - but like you trapping will not cure a poor sub.

WAF is a great thing to deal with in concerns for trapping, but IMO, budget is a no brainer when we are talking about $1500+ subs. I have trapped my entire bunker-basement for around $800. The improvement I have gotten with that $800 is some of the best cost vs performance that I have added to my system.

And talking about WAF and bass trapping??? Here we are with some of the lowest WAF speakers in audio, and we worry about Bass Trapping looks :haha1:

My main point was what you said last. A crappy sub is going to sound crappy no matter what. Get a good sub, test it...and work from there. Don't work backwards, and spend a bunch of money trying to make the room sound good for a crap sub.

I totally agree. People who own speakers like the ESL line of Martin Logans (except maybe the in-walls) looking at sub-$1k subs are out of their minds. They will get what they pay for - very poor performing and hard to integrate subs.

Dan

 

[discocarp]

Here we are with some of the lowest WAF speakers in audio

Are you kidding? I think that's bunk. Its just a question of whether or not you like modern design. If you like modern design, you think the MLs have the greatest WAF in audio.

 

[DTB300]

Are you kidding? I think that's bunk. Its just a question of whether or not you like modern design. If you like modern design, you think the MLs have the greatest WAF in audio.

Sorry, I do not "kid", and I did not say it was my thoughts. I will put my ML's in any room as it is about the sound and not the looks. But then again I am not much into the Interior Decorating, match up this with that decor.

Most wives that have seen my speakers, both the Sequel II's and CLS, first of all cannot believe they are speakers, and two, have a hard time seeing them in their decorating decor. Maybe contemporay decor, but when you get into the older country flowery setups, ML's just do not match up - in their minds.

Dan

 

[IWalker]

Glad we agree on most points DTB300, and as you say WAF is in the eye of the beholder. In my personal taste (not even WAF) I like the way my speakers looks...but would NEVER consider putting giant ugly cylinders in my back corners. Looks hideous. There are some people with absolutely giant LLT subs (big enough to stand in if you take the top off) that are fine with it, because they sound awesome for HT. In a dedicated HT "dungeon" I might (probably would) bass trap, and could live with LLTs but in any other room, it just looks downright terrible to me. Like almost everything in this hobby, it comes down to taste and compromises.

Also, you're absolutely right about $800 in bass trapping being money well spent, considering the costs most of us spend on upgrades that make much less difference...however if I had a hard budget of $1500, I'd rather get a used descent (or build other of my current subs to have 2) than get a $700 sub and trap it. Takes up much less room, and will probably(almost surely) sound better with eq than the $700 sub would trapped. Once you get above that price point, I believe trapping starts to pay off more than more money into a sub, depending on your priorities (music vs HT)

It would be an interesting test...get a high value sub like the AV123 UFW-12 and trap it, and compare it to the descent. I can say I'm not going to volunteer to buy the subs and test it though!

 

[discocarp]

but when you get into the older country flowery setups, ML's just do not match up - in their minds.

Agreed they aren't going to work in a country design, but its not just contemporary design that they work in. We love midcentury modern design, especially 50s danish modern design. The logans look phenomenal with that setup. Personally I hate contemporary design, but they'd look great in that setup too. I don't think its fair to say they have a low WAF just because they're a better match with some designs than others. That's going to be true of anything. Design a speaker with country trim, and its not going to work in modern design.

 

[dsiroky]

measurement

I downloaded RoomEQ and used an SPL in conjunction with my ECM8000 to measure what I was seeing and see if I could do a better job on setup.

I think it helped me determine I had the sub set too loud and I dialed this back somewhat.

Here's what I saw - two charts - one with regular output.

For kicks I also graphed the 2nd with vista's room calibration turned on (thought it would be interesting to see what it's doing).

 

[DTB300]

I downloaded RoomEQ and used an SPL in conjunction with my ECM8000 to measure what I was seeing and see if I could do a better job on setup.

Nice graphs. IMO, No need to measure below 10 Hz on your graphs.

I cannot remember, but with ROOM EQ, I believe you can just do a Sub measurement and set it from 10-200. That way the graph will be spread out more, showing you the severe nulls you are getting in your room - 40, 60, 70, 90, 120, 180, and 190 - Eyeballed guesses at the frequencies. And I am seeing nulls from 10dB down to almost 30dB down!!!! Very typical response for normal rooms.

From the two graphs, it appeas the Vista correction really did not do much. And this Vista graph is with reduce sub volume correct???

Have you also tried some other graphs after moving your sub around??? Would be interesting to see if those very large nulls can be corrected by sub placement.

Also try to some measurements with the microphone in different places, like the 38% rule.

Now you need to run some waterfall graphs to see the ringing in the room. This is where folks like Ethan and Glenn can really help you with the issues in the room.

Dan

 

[IWalker]

I agree with DTB's suggestions.

Those are indeed some serious nulls. It could be phase related, as is sometimes the case with crappy subs, but a lot of it is likely room related. Which sub are you using that's providing these results? It'd be interesting to get the new sub and test the results.

EQing would not help with that big null at 60hz.

 

[dsiroky]

Gotta love the service I got at my dealer (magnolia) I took the def tech supercube reference back, and he gave me a grotto, then two weeks later I took the grotto back (it was slightly underpowered for my room), paid an extra $100 and he gave me a deal on last years depth.

Now I am very happy. The Depth kicks the supercube to the curb. Where the sueprcube reference was all brute strenth and power, it's 14" driver rattling my windows, but overall it not being very articulate and overwhelming the mains, the Depth is the exact opposite.

It still has strength and power, but now it's understated - refined, very articulate, very well integrated with my mains. Very musical - it complements the Aeon's in every way - vs detracting from them.

Having heard the grotto and depth, I would never go back to a non-servo controlled sub.

I also added a DSP1124p into the chain to even out some of the bumps. I'll post some updated charts for comparison when I get a chance - but the depth probably needs a little more break in time before I do that. Thanks for all your help.

My only disappointment - didn't wind up building my own sub - but for the $100 upgrade to the depth, I couldn't justify the time/effort, nor the fact that it's hard to return a diy sub if you aren't happy with it. my sales rep at magnolia was just terrific.

To satisfy my DIY crave, for my next project, I'm going to build myself a linear interpolating usb non oversampling DAC so that I can upgrade my source quality. This looks like a very interesting project.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79452&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

 

[twich54]

Glad to hear you have finally reached a satisfactory 'musical' level !!

part of the reason why I went with the Velodyne "DD" series from the get-go. Also I'm sure you, like myself have learned....patience is a virtue !!