amey01
Well-known member
I [may??] be posting my Vistas in the classified section soon, in case some lucky Australian from the "family" is interested.
I got horny
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Are those the XD version?
Now what you need is a stack Spacehorn subwoofers, my favorite subwoofer on the planet!
Now what you need is a stack Spacehorn subwoofers, my favorite subwoofer on the planet!
Congratulations.
How well do those long hairy diffuser work?
How well do those long hairy diffuser work?
So unfaithful
So, tell us more about the new 'experience,' is it a good ride?
So, tell us more about the new 'experience,' is it a good ride?
amey01
Well-known member
So unfaithful
So, tell us more about the new 'experience,' is it a good ride?
@JonFo o Early days Jon! You should know that more than anyone. I've not much more than dumped them on the floor and connected them up. It'll be a months-long project to get them right, I'm sure. What I know now is this:
The good:
1. The coherence! Wow - bass-panel integration is really a thing. After years of ML ownership, I had lost all track of how I was subconsciously making allowances for (and expecting) a difference in sound around the panel-sub XO. The coherence here is not ceasing to amaze me. Every time something straddles the Vista's sub-panel XO range, I am gobsmacked, like my jaw is on the floor. It's just so effortless and natural.
1a. Add to that, the bass in general. It's active bass, and goes down to below 20Hz. No need for the sub now.!!
1b. Overall balance. It's just more natural, balanced, and less contrived than the 'Logans were - across the whole range. I don't know why.
2. The dynamics. But hey, everyone says that about Avantgardes. It knocks you flat on your back. I'm listening to tracks over and over. 1812......Wow. Tyberg Masses - I can't stop.
The bad:
1. Efficiency. A double edge sword. While the amp is barely leaving idle despite pushing 110dB (a change from ML, haha. And I don't think the neighbours share my excitement), it amplifies all system noise. I've found that my Copland valve preamp is excessively noisy (that is, I can hear hissing (primarily tweeter) from the listening seat). I'll have to get it checked out and fully serviced. For now, I'm driving the amp directly with the Mytek DAC.
2. It doesn't have that electrostatic purity and speed. Despite being a box-less design like ML, it never will. Doesn't matter how much set up and tuning I do, I'm not going to get that back. I don't know if I can come to terms with that. I'll have to wait and see. That's the only reason why I haven't listed the Vistas just yet. I need to be sure I am able to deal with this.
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amey01
Well-known member
No, not XDs.
Spacehorns - I know, right? Spacehorns are awesome! Would love some - however these go down below 20Hz, so I can't see how I'd ever need them. For Trios, maybe?
@Brad225 - They are abosrbers, and that is glass behind them. Totally necessary! Or are you talking about me, haha
Hmmmm….interesting transition. Congrats!
Interesting, I just finished a project that would probably sound excellent on those 110/db horns. The Eelekit TU8600S 300B SET amp. I have it powering my Geddes Abbey 12A speakers 2 way B&C 12” woofer and Waveguide/horn tweeter 95/db. It sounds superb and dead silent. It’s great on jazz and vocals but at 9 watts/ch there’s no way it can be used with my Odysseys. This amp has my interest up on what an 805 based SET amp at 48 watts per/ch would do.
I love the looks of those horns, and it sounds like you’re really satisfied with them. As for your thoughts on the good and the bad. They’re a perfect example of no speaker does everything, there are always trade offs. Enjoy man!!! And keep us updated
Attachments
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amey01
Well-known member
Interesting, I just finished a project that would probably sound excellent on those 110/db horns. The Eelekit TU8600S 300B SET amp. I have it powering my Geddes Abbey 12A speakers 2 way B&C 12” woofer and Waveguide/horn tweeter 95/db. It sounds superb and dead silent. It’s great on jazz and vocals but at 9 watts/ch there’s no way it can be used with my Odysseys. This amp has my interest up on what an 805 based SET amp at 48 watts per/ch would do.
I love the looks of those horns, and it sounds like you’re really satisfied with them. As for your thoughts on the good and the bad. They’re a perfect example of no speaker does everything, there are always trade offs. Enjoy man!!! And keep us updated
Looks like an interesting amp. I was already wondering whether a 3w SET integrated lies somewhere in my future?
There are some really nice SET amps out there right now both kits and already built. Probably because the demand is so high, the wait time to get a Decware Zen SET amp built is 4 years, ask me how I know
. But yes those horns would probably sound phenomenal with a quality 300B, 805, or 2A3 SET amp. The Elekit stuff is nice stuff at a very reasonable price with excellent instructions and are straight forward to build, if you can solder reasonably well and follow directions you can build their kits. Here’s a few shots of my build.
. But yes those horns would probably sound phenomenal with a quality 300B, 805, or 2A3 SET amp. The Elekit stuff is nice stuff at a very reasonable price with excellent instructions and are straight forward to build, if you can solder reasonably well and follow directions you can build their kits. Here’s a few shots of my build.Attachments
A Decware amp would be a great match for these horns! I didn't know the wait list is up to 4 years, . . . . bummer.
Bummer is pretty light, I thought wow that’s ridiculous. But I’m on said list, I figure I’ll eventually get one on the used market, and then re-sell it when mine gets delivered, but I WILL NOT pay the outrageous prices people are asking for used units right now.
The Willsenton R800i amps are very well reviewed right now.
https://www.amazon.com/Willsenton-Single-Ended-Integrated-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B0841J88GH
The Willsenton R800i amps are very well reviewed right now.
https://www.amazon.com/Willsenton-Single-Ended-Integrated-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B0841J88GH
amey01
Well-known member
There are some really nice SET amps out there right now both kits and already built. Probably because the demand is so high, the wait time to get a Decware Zen SET amp built is 4 years, ask me how I know
You've done a great job there. But that's beyond my abilities, that much I am confident.
Hahahaaha yeah I was very apprehensive at first thinking it may have been beyond my capabilities too. Luckily I had my good friend of many years come over and give me a refresher class on soldering, he’s always been excellent at it and it helped immensely for sure. And as in life nothing is perfect, look at the pic of the amp and the small 12au7 tube on the left, it bugs the hell out of me that it sits crooked to the left because the tube socket is soldered in crooked. And I’m not even going to try desoldering and resoldering the 8 solder joints that attach the socket. Lets just say it gives the amp some character
because it has zero affect on the operation of the amp.
because it has zero affect on the operation of the amp.
amey01
Well-known member
So finally got them dialled in to a point where I'm happy.
To add to another good point - the imaging. Wow; I've never heard imaging like this.
Interesting / weird issue though.
Above - I said my Copland pre was noisy. It was serviced, and.......no problem with it!
I took it home, connected it up and, same problem.
I then connected it up via a cheap SE>BAL adapter and ....... total silence.
Note, the pre is SE only, however it is not the SE inputs on the amp because I had the DAC connected directly to the SE inputs and there was no problem there either.
I really don't know what's going on.
To add to another good point - the imaging. Wow; I've never heard imaging like this.
Interesting / weird issue though.
Above - I said my Copland pre was noisy. It was serviced, and.......no problem with it!
I took it home, connected it up and, same problem.
I then connected it up via a cheap SE>BAL adapter and ....... total silence.
Note, the pre is SE only, however it is not the SE inputs on the amp because I had the DAC connected directly to the SE inputs and there was no problem there either.
I really don't know what's going on.
So you feel like the speakers overall sound better than your Martin Logans did? Imaging is better? I love my Martin Logans, but I'm not stubborn and locked into electrotats only. I'm interested in your comparison between the two.
What models of Martin Logan did you use previously? These speakers are better than any of them? I've never heard good horn speakers like your's. The rest of the audio chain remains the same as when you were using your Martin Logan speakers?
I just looked back at your post again, were the Vistas the only Martin Logans you owned?
amey01
Well-known member
Yep, imaging is comprehensively better - more stable, more precise, more vivid, wider, deeper.
The Vistas were the only speakers I have had for the last 15 years or so - but I had other Logans before them. Electronic chain all the same - until I get that 3w valve integrated
I'm not using the sub any more though, so another thing that aids coherence. The only area which is inferior is with purity/speed of the panel. I don't think there is anything non-ES that can match that. But it is a narrow area of nirvana, and the coherence over the whole spectrum more than makes up for it.
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amey01
Well-known member
I'm also a bit of an equipment collector, so connected up my trusty Audio Physic Sitaras for comparison.
These speakers are my reference box / conventional speaker - and they sound more "electrostatic" than any non-ES speaker I have heard.
The Avantgardes though, surpass these in every way. So we're really splitting atoms when talking about the deficiency in purity.
These speakers are my reference box / conventional speaker - and they sound more "electrostatic" than any non-ES speaker I have heard.
The Avantgardes though, surpass these in every way. So we're really splitting atoms when talking about the deficiency in purity.
Amey01 what model Avantegard speakers are those?
Nice one mate, well done on the AG's.
They're really well designed, one of those German engineering projects at its finest.
The AG's are amongst my favourite of all horn type speakers, leaving aside Acapela, Cessero, which cost a fortune, and Klipsch. The AG Duo XD's were on my short list of top 3 when I was on my final speaker quest back in 2018. Anyway, ended up with full range Stats, and the rest is history.
Most horns can have a In-your-face type of sound, if not properly dialed in. They can also have a serious jump-factor if the main amplifier is too powerful, and these two factors are the main cause for most demos to be less effective. Having more jump factor and massive dynamics is highly impressive but listener fatigue sets in after a while.
Quite a number of years ago, I helped a mate set up his Trio Omega's. He was using 400w Triode monoblocks along with an Audio Note preamp and Copland digital player. From the warm up time to actual listening, the hiss was so annoying, it was nearly impossible to listen to music without getting distracted by that huge hiss. So, eventually he sold off the big amps and opted for the Cary SET 300B monoblocks, much much better. The hiss almost disappeared and the music was more enjoyable. Also fitted out different jumper cables from active bass drivers to horn midrange and tweeter. By adjusting and tweaking these areas of the Trio's, he was able to tame those big horns. I think now, he's changed those amps again and is using just a single stereo SET version of 18w Class A. More than adequate to drive an efficiency of 120dB! If I recall he changed to Jadis.
So, certainly looks like you've taken the time to position these correctly and find that perfect soundstage. That takes time and effort, as is the case with high performance speakers. In order to get rid of hiss or hum completely, lowering the main amplifier's output power will certainly help. Then again, IF you're enjoying those fine tunes, that's all that matters!
Cheers, RJ
They're really well designed, one of those German engineering projects at its finest.
The AG's are amongst my favourite of all horn type speakers, leaving aside Acapela, Cessero, which cost a fortune, and Klipsch. The AG Duo XD's were on my short list of top 3 when I was on my final speaker quest back in 2018. Anyway, ended up with full range Stats, and the rest is history.
Most horns can have a In-your-face type of sound, if not properly dialed in. They can also have a serious jump-factor if the main amplifier is too powerful, and these two factors are the main cause for most demos to be less effective. Having more jump factor and massive dynamics is highly impressive but listener fatigue sets in after a while.
Quite a number of years ago, I helped a mate set up his Trio Omega's. He was using 400w Triode monoblocks along with an Audio Note preamp and Copland digital player. From the warm up time to actual listening, the hiss was so annoying, it was nearly impossible to listen to music without getting distracted by that huge hiss. So, eventually he sold off the big amps and opted for the Cary SET 300B monoblocks, much much better. The hiss almost disappeared and the music was more enjoyable. Also fitted out different jumper cables from active bass drivers to horn midrange and tweeter. By adjusting and tweaking these areas of the Trio's, he was able to tame those big horns. I think now, he's changed those amps again and is using just a single stereo SET version of 18w Class A. More than adequate to drive an efficiency of 120dB! If I recall he changed to Jadis.
So, certainly looks like you've taken the time to position these correctly and find that perfect soundstage. That takes time and effort, as is the case with high performance speakers. In order to get rid of hiss or hum completely, lowering the main amplifier's output power will certainly help. Then again, IF you're enjoying those fine tunes, that's all that matters!
Cheers, RJ
