How Long Have Your ML Panels Actually Lasted?

[robertawillisjr]

i'm one of the ones who voted at 19+ years. i'm just now looking at replacing my CLS. they've never been the "daily driver" i have quad-57 for that, but they do get their workouts. about 4 years ago they started to buzz and i pulled out the offending tape. since then they've been fine. but they are getting a bit "tired". restricted amounts of sunlight, no smoking, closed door to pets and respect all have helped.

Hi,

Would you explain "tired"? This thread and the disparity in panel lifetimes (aside from environment) has sparked my interest.

Thanks

 

[Bernard]

respect all have helped.

Would you please explain the "respect" part - do you genuflect before them before each session ?

 

[User211]

i'm one of the ones who voted at 19+ years. i'm just now looking at replacing my CLS. they've never been the "daily driver" i have quad-57 for that, but they do get their workouts. about 4 years ago they started to buzz and i pulled out the offending tape. since then they've been fine. but they are getting a bit "tired". restricted amounts of sunlight, no smoking, closed door to pets and respect all have helped.

I did say:

"If you've saved your panels by washing them, or doing some other kind of renovation, how old were they when you did so?"

So really, you tried to save them at 16 years, so that's were the vote should have been. No matter.

 

[zaphod]

Would you please explain the "respect" part - do you genuflect before them before each session ?

what happens in the home theater stays in the home theater.

 

[zaphod]

Hi,

Would you explain "tired"? This thread and the disparity in panel lifetimes (aside from environment) has sparked my interest.

Thanks

they just don't have that pop or engagement that they used to have. the "presence" isn't there. although just before i packed them up i had a friend over and while her husband and I were listening so some piano tracks, she came around the corner and commented that she didn't know i had a piano, and then stopped when she saw it was the speakers. so they still have a good sense of realism to them.

but to me, the punch just isn't there. so the midrange is starting to let go. so it's time to start thinking replacement when i unpack them.

 

[zaphod]

I did say:

"If you've saved your panels by washing them, or doing some other kind of renovation, how old were they when you did so?"

So really, you tried to save them at 16 years, so that's were the vote should have been. No matter.

actually i did save them at 16. there is a difference between the life of panels that get washed and continue to live and panels that get washed and still experience dimished levels and there are lots of stories on both sides of the shower curtain.

i read that statement to mean if you had tried to save them and failed. yep, i had the the tape go. but it was an easy fix that removed the problem. the panels had a problem and it was fixable, they hadn't yet failed and required replacement.

no different (in my mind) than needing to upgrade the firmware in your blu-ray player. just regular maintenance.

now, if i'd ripped out the tape and the panels had still buzzed - then i would say that the lifespan was 16 years. but i got 4 more out of them, and to some i still have more years left, but to me it's time.

 

[timm]

So you've been using MLs for a number of years. Or you've bought some second hand, but knew the age of the panels.

Approximately how long did your panels last before you hand trouble/needed to replace them?

If you've saved your panels by washing them, or doing some other kind of renovation, how old were they when you did so?

I've been meaning to raise this poll for a long time. Some real world data might even help ML, though I guess they have a pretty good picture of how long they really last from replacement panel orders.

What this thread may do is give people a good idea of how long they really do last. From it, they ought to be able to ascertain whether they wish to make a purchase or not. A CLX or Summit X is an expensive speaker, after all, and some may consider essential panel replacement after a certain likely lifetime to be a major hindrance to actually buying a pair in the first place.

Please don't let this thread de-generate into a Sanders life time warranty versus the lack thereof via ML argument. We've been there and made all the salient points already.

Potentially a very interesting thread if life expectancy actually turns out to be much shorter (or even greater) than most expected. We'll see

Multiple votes are allowed in case you've been through a few panels, but that only kinda works if they've lasted different time periods

Additionally, please don't vote if you have simply damaged them by accident! Pretty obvious, really.

So - if you haven't had an issue with your panels - then we do not vote? You are just looking for failures? As an example - I have had mine for about 5 years with no problems. How about a selection 'never had an issue w/panels'

 

[User211]

timm - read the whole thread

 

[User211]

Original panels on my SL3's. 15.5 years and going strong. There is a slight buzzing from one of the panels, but it's not too bad.

I think this thread is a pretty difficult one - in the sense that people's tolerance thresholds will vary. I couldn't live with one iota of a buzz. In fact, I know I'd replace them straight away if I heard that.

My criterion would be:

1) Any even mild disparity between left and right channel volume output.
2) Obvious loss of HF output and/or loss of sparkle or general feeling of loss of balance between frequency extremes.
3) Failure to pass a frequency response test I'd taken when new to within a reasonable threshold after any period of time.
4) Aesthetic visual compromise arising from any cause.

With my Ascent panels, I started to suspect/become convinced that the mylar coating applied by ML, which has a sort of distributed very thin black powder appearance (at least, circa 2001-2 and more so circa 2007), was starting to align itself with the stator perforations - literally a multitude of black dots Rather than depart, these molecules simply seemed to want to congregate and hang on.

I'm not sure why I find this subject so interesting. Perhaps it is because I don't really understand it.

 

[westoz]

I'm not sure why I find this subject so interesting. Perhaps it is because I don't really understand it.[/QUOTE]

What I find interesting is peoples acceptance of the loss of conductivity as a given, and little negativity towards ML's poor and inadequate application of the coating- all the other stat manufacturers have it sorted, why not ML?
I just paid $900 for replacement panels so I feel the pain, but I'm also ****ed off.

 

[Rich]

What I find interesting is peoples acceptance of the loss of conductivity as a given, and little negativity towards ML's poor and inadequate application of the coating- all the other stat manufacturers have it sorted, why not ML?
I just paid $900 for replacement panels so I feel the pain, but I'm also ****ed off.

It's called fanboyism, and it seems to be pretty rampant on this forum. Any critical opinion of MartinLogan's business practices is quickly drowned out with heaps of scorn by those who would rather put their head in the sand than take a hard look at the facts.

 

[timm]

timm - read the whole thread

Justin I did read the whole thread. I figured you were trying to get an idea of the quality control on these panels but you have not made a space for those without problems. Having both would give a more accurate picture. I am interested as well in these results but to only include problem panels in the result set skews your research.

 

[timm]

Sorry just saw your 'sister thread' response. I Just thought having the same number of categories with as an example a 1-5 year problem option with a 1-5 year 'no problem' option would give you a more accurate picture. Then continue those options in 5 yr increments.

 

[sb6]

Can I ask exactly what goes "bad" on the panel to warrant replacing? Tape becomes dislodged, coating issues other?

 

[MPS]

Panels do fail for various reasons:
- membrane loses conductivity (coating failure)
- excess panel leak current (panel contamination due to impurities)
- panel disintegration (due to mechanical failure)
There are other problems concerning HV circuitry but they are not panel related and do not require panel replacement.

Excellent thread btw, there is no absolute measure as when a panel is to be replaced. Then again this thread will give good presentation of when people experience the need to replace panels. Large variations are to be expected due to differences in operating environment. Dust, grease, smoke, humidity, extreme temperatures, UV all are enemies of our beloved panels.

 

[timm]

Excellent thread btw, there is no absolute measure as when a panel is to be replaced. Then again this thread will give good presentation of when people experience the need to replace panels. Large variations are to be expected due to differences in operating environment. Dust, grease, smoke, humidity, extreme temperatures, UV all are enemies of our beloved panels.

I respectfully disagree with you here... The reason is that the result set as I said in my previous post is skewed to find 'problems' and ignores anyone that has had 'no problems' - which gives you no real indication of the failure rate. Note: we have 12 respondants right now. That tells you nothing. If we had 100 responses - the results are still compromised and would indicate that there is a 100% failure rate on the panels. If the 'no failure' data is included with the 'failure' data - then you have a clearer picture of the quality - or failure rate of the panels.

 

[sb6]

I respectfully disagree with you disagreeing!

IMO - While the data provided is a subset of the complete picture and does not include ML owners who may have never seen a problem, it does in and of itself reveal interesting information in regard to the "Failed MLs" category-only. And while the sample size might not be optimal, I doubt you will get sample data in the 100s to ascertain a high enough confidence level to quantifiably assess anything.

 

[MPS]

I respectfully disagree with you here... The reason is that the result set as I said in my previous post is skewed to find 'problems' and ignores anyone that has had 'no problems' - which gives you no real indication of the failure rate. Note: we have 12 respondants right now. That tells you nothing. If we had 100 responses - the results are still compromised and would indicate that there is a 100% failure rate on the panels. If the 'no failure' data is included with the 'failure' data - then you have a clearer picture of the quality - or failure rate of the panels.

Well I get your point but I still feel this thread serves it's purpose. I'm quite happy to see some units still operating after 19+ years. Construction and manufacturing process has been improved over the years (ie clear spars). There is also personal requirements to consider, what might be acceptable panel performance for one person might be way unacceptable for another one.
Maybe there should be a thread covering current panel age statistics to add to information available from this poll.

 

[timm]

Yeah - nothing against Justin - or any of you guys -- Just trying to see if there is a way to improve the statistics that we get out of this... 12 respondants is not enough to have any conclusion - and I'm too dang lazy to put a poll together!! There has been a lot of discussion about the quality of the panels - and all of you know that if you google anything on the net for 'mercedes benz problems' or 'ferrari problems' - you will get a bunch of people that have in fact had issues... But, is that a true reflection of the quality of the product? Well, I am hoping you see the analogy. I was hoping this thread - as opposed to being something like that - could be something that was a representation of people with both positive and negative experiences with panel life.

I know the 'respectfully disagree' comment can come off as pompous - but it is not meant that way..

 

[User211]

To be honest, I was just waiting until we had a few more responses before raisng the "sister thread". The response has been pretty underwhelming, and the forum in general seems fairly inactive at the moment - it goes through phases of activity/inactivity.

It is just possible many don't hang on to MLs for long enough to provide accurate data. Who knows. Whatever. Disappointing response in terms of feedback, however you look at it.