high output/low output cartridges

[timm]

So, all of my life - I have only had high output cartridges. Do low output cartridges have any advantages? I saw the writeup on the Benz Glider Medium output cartridge - and wondered if there would be a diff in sound between their low output and high output versions - which they carry. I know it is a 'matching' thing and that with certain phonostages you need a higher output or vice versa... Can anyone shed some light?

My Cary slp 98p has 47K ohm impedence - and they recommend something with at least 1.4 mv of output (I think that is the correct measurement)....

anyway thanks all..

 

[RichTeer]

Lower output cartridges tend to have fewer windings on their coils, and/or possibly weaker magnets. In the case of a moving coil (MC) cartridge, fewer coils implies lower moving mass, which might lead to better detail.

Most MC cartridges like to see a lower loading than the 47k Ohm your preamp presents (47K is a typical value for MM cartridges). Judging by that, and Cary's suggested minimum output, I think you'll need a MM cartridge. MCs tend to be around 0.5mV output, which is probably too low for your preamp.

Hope this helps...

 

[FISH_MAN]

I just made the leap of faith to a MC cartridge I hope it sounds better than my current MM. the way I have heard it described is that their is much less mas in a MC than a MM sort of like your electrostatic speakers the sower the mas the faster and more accurately it can trace the signal thus preserving the original source.

 

[twich54]

to 'further' what Rich has said and speaking towards the Benz-Micro line with their L-M-H outputs, yes matching with ones phono-pre is a big consideration (arguably the single biggest along with tonearm compliance). With that being said ageneral rule of thumb is that low output MC's (less tham .5mv) should be used with only the quietest phono stages possible, this probably rules out better than half the tube variants out there. It's a 'gain thing'. The advantages, again generaly speaking with respect to LO MC's is what Rich said.

With respect to your preamp, I'd think it would work just fine with any of the HO variants

 

[twich54]

the way I have heard it described is that their is much less mas in a MC than a MM

Keep in mind 'Fish' this is a generality, there are some, most noteably ...Soundsmith, that can demonstrate otherwise.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Keep in mind 'Fish' this is a generality, there are some, most noteably ...Soundsmith, that can demonstrate otherwise.

lets keep this in perspective I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about as I have never heard a MC and just spent $1275 dollars on a Lyra that may sound just as good or even worse than my Ortofon i am just repeating what I have heard.

 

[FISH_MAN]

With that being said ageneral rule of thumb is that low output MC's (less tham .5mv) should be used with only the quietest phono stages possible, this probably rules out better than half the tube variants out there. It's a 'gain thing'.

ya I think the gain is like 10 times what it takes for a high output is I believe the phono stage in my c2300 will handle it fine but have been told if this stage is not everything but almost perfect you will hear noise do to the amplification involved.

 

[timm]

thanks for the replies... fish_man -- let us know the diff between the ortofon... yes - if I were looking at the benz line - I would have to consider the high output option. i would think the L-M-H line would sound practically identical - if they didn't - why not just not brand it differently? Maybe just ease of marketing - I don't know. Put it this way - I have probably never had a cartridge that cost over 100 bucks on my turntable (old shure m91ed / audio Technica at95 / B&O MMC 4) wondering where the newer more expensive cartridges would take me with a new vpi table.... might as well dream a bit -- this purchase is at least a year off.... but, it is fun to talk analog again....

I had an epiphany the other week - I was listening to the TT I have and some CDs - feeling as if I had to choose between the two - when I realized... I can have BOTH!!! Ha!!

 

[FISH_MAN]

yeah you can have both I do and I like it that way. I should with any luck have the new cartridge in a couple of weeks I will let you know then. there was a good difference between my $80 dollar cartridge and the Ortofon bronze for sure I think if you have a good table and speakers you owe it to yourself to get a decent cartridge if money permits.

 

[RichTeer]

lets keep this in perspective I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about as I have never heard a MC and just spent $1275 dollars on a Lyra that may sound just as good or even worse than my Ortofon

Speaking as a Lyra fan (I'm currently using their old flagship, the Parnassus in my rig), and even though I've not heard one yet, I don't think you'll be disappointed with your Lyra.

 

[DrJRapp]

lets keep this in perspective I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about as I have never heard a MC and just spent $1275 dollars on a Lyra that may sound just as good or even worse than my Ortofon i am just repeating what I have heard.

At that street price it appears like your purchased and Argo i. That's what I use with my uppper end TT (an Oracle Delphi with SME IV) trust me, you will not be dissapointed; it's a killer cartridge that significantly outperforms its price point. You will need a top notch phone preamp to realize the full potential of the Lyra. I use a Rega IOS, which is perfectly quiet...unfortunatly also pricy.

My "junior" TT setup has an Ortophon Blue, just one click below the Bronze. While the Ortofon is an excellent cartridge there is no comparison to be made with the Lyra, they are in such different ball parks. Intetrestingly enough, some poorly recorded and produced vinyl actually sounds better with the Ortofon which tends to reveal less of the recordings defects. That's why I have 2 rigs.

 

[FISH_MAN]

At that street price it appears like your purchased and Argo i. That's what I use with my uppper end TT (an Oracle Delphi with SME IV) trust me, you will not be dissapointed; it's a killer cartridge that significantly outperforms its price point. You will need a top notch phone preamp to realize the full potential of the Lyra. I use a Rega IOS, which is perfectly quiet...unfortunatly also pricy.

My "junior" TT setup has an Ortophon Blue, just one click below the Bronze. While the Ortofon is an excellent cartridge there is no comparison to be made with the Lyra, they are in such different ball parks. Intetrestingly enough, some poorly recorded and produced vinyl actually sounds better with the Ortofon which tends to reveal less of the recordings defects. That's why I have 2 rigs.

thanks I ordered a delos I believe it will replace the argo I

 

[risabet]

So, all of my life - I have only had high output cartridges. Do low output cartridges have any advantages? I saw the writeup on the Benz Glider Medium output cartridge - and wondered if there would be a diff in sound between their low output and high output versions - which they carry. I know it is a 'matching' thing and that with certain phonostages you need a higher output or vice versa... Can anyone shed some light?

My Cary slp 98p has 47K ohm impedence - and they recommend something with at least 1.4 mv of output (I think that is the correct measurement)....

anyway thanks all..

I find the advantages of LOMC's to be quite real. Within the Benz line the LO carts are faster and more detailed than the equivalent MO or especially the HO carts. That being said, I opted for the MO "ACE" as the best rtrade-off between sound quality and noise. When I upgrade, to the "Wood", I'll probably stick with the MO for just these reasons.

It has been so many years since I have heard a moving magnet or moving iron cart that I can't comment on their sound.

 

[babydoc]

Cartridge Output: Does it matter

So, all of my life - I have only had high output cartridges. Do low output cartridges have any advantages? I saw the writeup on the Benz Glider Medium output cartridge - and wondered if there would be a diff in sound between their low output and high output versions - which they carry. I know it is a 'matching' thing and that with certain phonostages you need a higher output or vice versa... Can anyone shed some light?

My Cary slp 98p has 47K ohm impedence - and they recommend something with at least 1.4 mv of output (I think that is the correct measurement)....

anyway thanks all..

As a multi-cartridge owner, I have experienced trade offs depending on cartridge output and what is being played and the front end being used. This is not a single correct answer question. The theoretical advantage of fewer windings can be offset by the need to increase preamp gain and experience more noise. Further some records are cut at a very low level. Low output cartridges feeding standard preamplifiers may not be able to reproduce these recordings at satisfactory levels in some systems without unacceptable noise.
The ideal solution is to have a stable of at least two cartridges in two tonearms which can be interchanged: one high output, one low output. To paraphrase Voltaire: "This is the best of all possible worlds."

 

[tonepub]

Good advice there....

 

[risabet]

As a multi-cartridge owner, I have experienced trade offs depending on cartridge output and what is being played and the front end being used. This is not a single correct answer question. The theoretical advantage of fewer windings can be offset by the need to increase preamp gain and experience more noise. Further some records are cut at a very low level. Low output cartridges feeding standard preamplifiers may not be able to reproduce these recordings at satisfactory levels in some systems without unacceptable noise.
The ideal solution is to have a stable of at least two cartridges in two tonearms which can be interchanged: one high output, one low output. To paraphrase Voltaire: "This is the best of all possible worlds."

One has to be willing to accept the different sound inherent in two different cartridges. Unless one is willing to buy two cartridges from say, Benz, and have one HO and another LO of the same model, and even then the sound is different. What about mono? Unless you have a VPI or some other arm with interchangeable armwands, multiple tonearms are not especially practical.