Hi All, 7 ML speakers in all, and ADVICE NEEDED!

[Findhelp]

Hi everyone, it's great to be a member, I've read what you all are writing for quite some time now, and thought it perhaps time to throw my hat in the ring, if for no other reason than to get some advice from fellow ML lovers and audioholics about the best multichannel amps for my speakers...

First off, my system consists of ML Summits for front L&R, Stage center, Vantages as rears, Descent sub, and my most recent purchase, a pair of the AMAZING motif's - so technically I have a full 7.1 ML system (all speakers match in black as well, if nothing else, it sure is a good looking speaker system... and considering the crap I'm running them with, stunning sounding as well - I can't begin to imagine how good it'll sound with equipment worthy of the speakers driving them)... I say "technically" because the real reason for the purchase of the motif's is that I recently moved to a new apartment with my wife and first child (almost 1 year old beautiful baby girl, and we have another in the oven, been there about 3 months give or take), and the space for my home theater is exceedingly small... basically 9.5' wide, and maybe 13' long... with a wall on one side and not the other! So needless to say, there's no space for Vantages as rears at the moment, they're downstairs in my office looking pretty, so for now I've got a 5.1 system with Summits, Stage, and Motif rears as my main setup ... Actually, I've never heard all 7 of these speakers together!

Needless to say, I love ML speakers. I like to think I've got an extremely evolved ear... I've been a musician all my life - classical piano (12 yrs) and guitar, and opera - I sang at Lincoln center at age 16 and was admitted to Julliard in 11th grade, but I didn't go, wanted to finish up high school back with my buddies, play in my band, party etc. - went to "real" school instead (Columbia U) (and have regretted that series of decisions ever since, I wish I had pursued music) - and have been interested in high end audio literally from age 10 or so on... I'm 34 now... To this day, sitting in my music studio back home in Philly where I grew up, I've got a Threshold amp, a PS audio amp, a true image preamp (one to look up for fun if anyone's interested, it'll be interesting if there's anything findable), an Adcom amp, Snell speakers, TDL speakers (I LOVED these), Carver Amazing speakers (another fun one to look up - they were named accurately in my opinion, Amazing!), Yamaha studio monitors, Nakamichi (sp?) Dragon and RX-505 cassette decks, and then a bunch of pro-audio gear, including an Akai 12 track recorder with DBX on all channels, it recorded on their "proprietary" tape, which were actually just Beta cassettes sold at a premium, a Tascam 16 channel recording board etc. etc. etc...

Now I live in the Silicon Valley in California and work as a technical marketing consultant specializing in business development through the use of web technologies, am basically the premier SEO (search engine optimizer) in the behavioral healthcare field, run my own optimization consulting business called SEOconsulting, and Founded and still run the largest public benefit addiction and alcoholism resource and referral website and directory on the internet - Treatment Centers - or just search Google for "drug treatment centers", it's #1 in the organic results - better be, or I wouldn't be much of an optimizer would I! )

Anyhoo, it's bedtime for me, I'll take some shots of the current setup (and explain the equipment in it) as soon as I have a free minute if anyone's interested - I for one love seeing shots of everyone's systems here, they're all so wonderful, and they're all so creative

Part of what's spurred me to join at this time is that I'm finally nearing the point at which I'll be in a position to start upgrading my equipment (I know I haven't gone into it yet, but let's just say that my processor/amp setup, in it's entirety, consists of a 'piece of poo' Pioneer Elite VSX-74txvi receiver that maybe listed for $1500 new - it's a testament to ML's that they're so efficient it can drive them at all, let alone 5 channels simultaneously 2 of which are Summits, but it does with no trouble whatsoever... Nevertheless, this is in DIRE need of upgrading).

So... It's amp time I need recommendations on a multichannel amp (preferably 7 channel, although 5 works for me and I'd buy a dedicated 2 channel (or monoblocks) for the Summits at some point down the line... but with a 7, I could bi-amp the summits for the time being, which I'm sure does wonders). I want to keep the cost for the multichannel amp down (preferably) to 5k max, maybe a little more if I found the perfect amp... but from what I can see, on audiogon for example, a budget of 5k can get me a Halcro MC50 or MC70 (with a little luck), the big Denon 10 channel (which is quite interesting to me, as I'm definitely planning on getting their avp-a1hdci processor as my processor) simaudio Titan, or even a classe ca-5200, and there are lots of other great amps on there... Needless to say, I want the best (of course, that's why we're all here, we all wanted the best - so we bought ML's :bowdown... So what's the best multichannel amp for ML's guys (and gals)? Gladly taking all suggestions!

Thanks everyone
Blessings!

 

[tsmooth]

Other people will be able to fill you in on the amps, but any ML speaker with a powered subwoofer should not be bi-amped. I would put most of the money into a great stereo or mono blocks for the Summit, then worry about the other channels.

 

[Ron]

I have the summits, stage, and motif surrounds also. I very pleased with the McIntosh 402 for the fronts, and the McIntosh 205 for the center and rears. The 205 is a 5 channel amp. The last 2 channels are used for my outdoor speakers. Martin Logan and McIntosh work very well together. The 205 can power the summits, but the 402 will do a better job. I use to own the vantage for my front speakers and the 205 worked perfectly.

 

[Rich]

As Tsmooth said, you cannot biamp the Summits. They are already biamped. So you really just need a five channel amp right now. I have a setup very near to yours: Summits and Stage, with Clarities and Frescos for the rear. I use a five channel Sunfire 5400 to power my center and surrounds. I highly recommend this amp. There are many others that will work great too. Lots of previous threads on this subject, too. But I know that sometimes it is hard to find the information you are looking for using the search function.

You have no idea how much better your system will sound with a better amp, preamp and source. I used a Yamaha receiver to drive my Ascents when I first got them. Once I upgraded to some quality electronics, it was just amazing how much better the sound was. After that, there was no going back.

You are right that your space is cramped, but you should still be able to get great sound. One thought looking at your setup is that the Vantages seem to be way overkill for surround speakers. But since you already have them, I guess I would use them because their value on the used market isn't high right now. Or you could get some smaller speakers for surround and use the Vantages in a second system.
If you really want the best multichannel amp you can buy, definitely consider amps from Theta, Plinius, BAT, etc.

But personally, I would skimp a little on the multichannel amp. Get something decent and capable, but not top of the line expensive. Save your money for a quality two-channel amp to power the Summits, a quality surround processor, and a super high quality two channel preamp with home theater pass-through, and a great source player. This assumes music is as important or more important to you than movies.

Oh, and good luck finding any time to listen to this system at reference levels with an infant and another on the way. My little girl just turned eighteen months old and it seems I find very little time these days to spend in my media room.

Oh, and :welcome: to the club!

 

[JMAUSGP]

For the money, power and sound a Sunfire 5400 is hard to beat. I have one powering my music only CLX 5.1 surround system. And you are right you can get some amazing 5 and 7 channel deals on Audiogon and all the amps mentioned including Sunfire are easy to get off A'gon. The nice thing is that you can use a great Denon or Sony ES AVR as a pre-amp and use the 5 channel amp for powering your MLs. I also have a 7.2 Martin Logan system for HT. I use a Sunfire TGA 7400 and Sony 5300ES, with OPPO BDP-83 Universal Disc Player for music surround sound. I personally am not in to two channel sound, it just isn't immersive enough for me. I only listen to 5.1 and 7.2 surround sound as in SACD, DVD Audio, DTS 5.1 CD and when I do listen to CDs I use a McCormack MAP-1 with ARM surround mode to turn two channel into realistic 5.1 channel surround. But the nice thing is that if you want to listen to 2-channel it is easy to do. The opposite is not so easy.

 

[Findhelp]

wow, I sure feel dumb

Can't bi-amp the Summits... DUH!!! WHAT WAS I THINKING? It's not as if I don't know their woofers our powered (hence the cord, right? you mean it's not just for the pretty blue lights? wow, I'm embarrassed, heck of a way to get started on the forum!)

Anyhoo, I completely understand and appreciate the suggestions about not worrying about getting the absolute top end in multichannel amps - and I do do a great deal of straight Stereo listening (with great speakers, and a well tuned setup, to my ear it rivals or bests surround's immersion - Although I LOVE multichannel stuff, and I LOVE home theater and movies, the best musical experiences I've ever had (listening that is) has been to 2 channel setups

Ok... Then my next question is... can I save money? Bel canto reference monoblocks? What about Emotiva amps? Heck, I could buy the 5 channels of amplification I need right this minute with their products... Can an emotiva amp stack up next to a sunfire?

Another question... one of the responses brought up Theta as among those top end products I don't necessarily need to be spending that level of money on for multichannel power... The Dreadnaught II... I've seen for 4k and under on audiogon with 5-7 channels of amplification in them - basically brand new in some cases, with full factory warranty from dealers... is that preferable to the sunfire with ML's? I should also comment that if I can get a Halcro MC50 (which is a great multichannel amp, right? although the consensus here so far is that it's quality may be overkill along with others I mentioned) for as little $3500, why wouldn't I get the highest quality multichannel amp I could afford?

Perhaps I should also mention that I agree with everyone, the power to the fronts in my setup is paramount (in every setup) - however to get the kind of quality I'm looking for (thanks for the McIntosh suggestion), with absolutely no space for monoblocks, nor a multichannel amp plus a stereo amp, my only real options are either super tiny monoblocks like the bel canto's, or 1 amp that can power all the speakers - which gets me back to wanting to buy the highest quality multichannel amp I can find, since it's also (for the time being - and until we move at some point) essentially going to have to do the job of the front amplification as well

Does that make looking for a high end multichannel amp any more logical? At least for the time being?

 

[TomDac]

I'd get a high-end 2 channel amp for your mains and a not-so-high end multi channel amp for the other channels...

That's what I'm planning on doing.... Keep my Pass for the mains and then get a 5 channel amp for the other 3 channels, which leaves me with room for growth or redundancy in case the Pass craps out (knock wood).

 

[Rich]

That's what I'm planning on doing.... Keep my Pass for the mains and then get a 5 channel amp for the other 3 channels, which leaves me with room for growth or redundancy in case the Pass craps out (knock wood).

Don't look now, Tom, but there is a Pass Labs X5 on the 'gon for $2400. That would be a nice complement to your two channel amp.

 

[Spike]

Welcome aboard, I'm glad to see another Silicon Valley residence joining the forum. Given your extensive musical background, AND your exposure to high-end equipments early on, I think you're not going to be satisfied with the class-D amplifier (the likes of Halcro, BelCanto, etc...) I found them to be lifeless when I tried them out on my system, driving the ReQuests. One cheap option I had to throw out is why not dust off the old, trusty Threshold and bring it into your system, driving the Summits. If the Threshold is of Nelson Pass vintage, it's quite good and will stack up well even in today's offerings.
Now, if you're embarking on a multi-channel amplifier due to your space constraints, I'd look at:

1. Pass Labs X5
2. Anthem Statement P5

Now, if you manage somehow to solve your space constraint, you'll have lots more interesting choices at your disposal.

Good luck.
Spike

 

[Findhelp]

That's one I forgot about

Pass... great amps... I'm jealous! Thanks for your suggestions everyone, I'm convinced... and Tom, thanks for your welcome to the forums - you're doing a great job, I'd like to thank you for dedicating yourself to this (personally, and on behalf of the community - I know I'm new and can't speak for the community, but if anyone doesn't feel the same, they can say so)... I for one know exactly what's involved in administrating a forum, and it's not a small task by any measure - I've got one on treatment-centers.net and another on 4sobriety.com. It's really a labor of love, even after you've turned it into a successful business - trust me, I know... You do have the advantage of the subject matter lending itself to a very high quality of user (no doubt why it's such a wonderfully informative and active forum) and I'm sure that helps (not having to remove spam every 2 minutes, frivolous links etc. etc.)... that's not so much the case when dealing with active addicts and alcoholics, and P-d off family memebers trying to interact on a forum

So tell me something, Pass Labs' amps... I see a fair number of them in good shape on audiogon, the vast majority being slightly older models (x250 etc.) How do previous series' Pass amps compare with their most recent products?
In fact, maybe this is better asked as a more general question - when it comes to traditional amp designs (class A, A/B etc.), Is there really a demonstrable quality difference, noise difference, or any other significant difference between a 10-15-year-old design and a current one (from a top quality maker)? For example, is a new Pass (or Mark Levinson, or Krell) really a better amp (sound wise - technologically who cares as long as it sounds as good and is as well built as these monsters all are) than an equivalent design by the same company from 10 years ago? 20 years ago?

 

[Spike]

So tell me something, Pass Labs' amps... I see a fair number of them in good shape on audiogon, the vast majority being slightly older models (x250 etc.) How do previous series' Pass amps compare with their most recent products?
In fact, maybe this is better asked as a more general question - when it comes to traditional amp designs (class A, A/B etc.), Is there really a demonstrable quality difference, noise difference, or any other significant difference between a 10-15-year-old design and a current one (from a top quality maker)? For example, is a new Pass (or Mark Levinson, or Krell) really a better amp (sound wise - technologically who cares as long as it sounds as good and is as well built as these monsters all are) than an equivalent design by the same company from 10 years ago? 20 years ago?

Well, let me give a few examples:

1. Krell KSA-50
2. Pass Aleph 3
3. McIntosh 275

All of the above mentioned amplifiers were designed more than 15 years ago, with the Aleph being the...youngest, designed in 1995. I have heard all of these amplifiers in my system, pitted against the recent high-end counterparts and they more than held their own. In fact, the Krell KSA-50 and the Pass Aleph 3 sound head and shoulders more musical than lots of today's amplifiers. The McIntosh is well, a MAC! Enough said.
To put things into ML perspective, how much more $$$ and efforts would it take to better the 20-year-old CLS or Monolith? Even then, how much of an improvement would there be?

Spike

 

[TomDac]

Don't look now, Tom, but there is a Pass Labs X5 on the 'gon for $2400. That would be a nice complement to your two channel amp.

Yeah.. been talkin' to the guy about it... not in my budget right now, I'm afraid.. there was an X3 on there too, but it sold really quickly.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Can't bi-amp the Summits... DUH!!! WHAT WAS I THINKING? It's not as if I don't know their woofers our powered (hence the cord, right? you mean it's not just for the pretty blue lights? wow, I'm embarrassed, heck of a way to get started on the forum!)

Well, technically you are STILL wrong as you would have an A/C power cord EVEN WITHOUT the onboard power amp for the Summit... you have to power that 20,000 volt stat panel somehow! Every electrostatic speaker is going to have to plug into the wall somewhere.

When you get a place to fully enjoy all 7.1 channels of ML loveliness you will be on cloud 9! All 7 of mine are ML ESL's with the .1 being a 1st Gen Descent. AWESOME SET UP! I use Rotel gear (1090 for the Prodigy front left and right and a 1095 for the Ascent, Theater and Script. Like it but don't LOVE those amps. A little bright for me, but that might have more to do with my room than the amps...

Good luck with your system and the new additions to the family!

 

[Findhelp]

Right, whoops! OK, another question...

Of course you're right - maybe if I wasn't writing these posts at 2-3am (the first chance I seem to be getting each day) I'd be doing a better job of stating the blatantly obvious... :duh: I mean, I guess technically I'm not wrong about the need for a power cord for the woofers, but that's clearly not the obvious reason the Summits (as do the other ML's as you stated) need a power cord -

I too still use the older Descent, and am madly in love with it... I've got a buddy working at a Magnolia store who I asked not too long ago how the older and newer designs compare (told him I was considering upgrading), and he actually told me not to do it (despite the commission he could have gotten... and he's not that good of a friend) - He told me his experience with the newer descent (which he's had a lot of experience with) is that it "bottoms out" (not exactly sure what he meant by that), but that the earlier version he never heard do the same... whatever the case, I love it

Thank you for your experience and suggestions, they're super helpful...

Spike - you're right... why wouldn't I dust off the Threshold? (it's a monster too) - Getting it from Philly to San Jose will be a little bit of a task, but it sure was a great amp - I can't imagine why it wouldn't still be... I think it's 250 watts of pure class A power if I remember correctly, maybe more

One specific amp question - Denon 10 channel "ultra" reference poa-a1hdci (if I remember the designation correctly) - there's a possibility I can get a good deal on one slightly used at the moment... I've read glowing reviews, many of which say it's a true top-notch amp, every bit in the league of the best multichannel amps out there - effortless, powerful, super-quiet, extremely neutral, and infinitely configurable...
Can anyone confirm this for me? Has anyone heard it in comparison with other equivalently priced multichannel amps? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

 

[Polarbear]

Denon high-end multichannel duo

One specific amp question - Denon 10 channel "ultra" reference poa-a1hdci (if I remember the designation correctly) - there's a possibility I can get a good deal on one slightly used at the moment... I've read glowing reviews, many of which say it's a true top-notch amp, every bit in the league of the best multichannel amps out there - effortless, powerful, super-quiet, extremely neutral, and infinitely configurable...
Can anyone confirm this for me? Has anyone heard it in comparison with other equivalently priced multichannel amps? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

Hi

I have not yet posted a 'new member' thread item as I still await my Spires which are on order, and due in late May/early June. I first fell in love with ML when hearing my old friend's Mac-driven Aerii over in a converted barn in Normandy, some years back, but was smitten irredeemably by the Spires at the Bristol Show this year; the hairs on the back of my neck literally stood up and I had to be dragged still drooling from the demo room, transfixed to the spot, when they closed. Y'all understand!

My two-channel system features a pair of Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista kW Monoblocks and the kW Pre driving a set of Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 800's.
As an honorary Canuck (BC, natch - sorry all you Ottawans and Torontans - but just won a big brownie point from the ML Lord of Lake Kalamalka) and keen radio listener, I had to have a Magnum Dynalab MD109 Tuner to go with it. If only Radio Scotland was accessible via Sonos...but I digress.

My HT set-up currently utilises the Denon duo that you mention:

Denon AVP-A1HDA, Denon POA-A1HD, Denon DVD-2500BT, B&W PV1, PMC TB2i x2; PMC DB1i x 2; PMC TB2M-Ci; Pioneer PDP-5000EX; Denon TU-1800DAB; Sonos ZP100; Panasonic DVR-940HX-S & NV-VHS930B; Humax Freesat PVR; Toshiba Qosmio G30-163 laptop with HD-DVD drive (Doh!)

Cabling is Chord Anthem 2 XLR interconnects and Chord Epic Twin for speakers, and the front /rear stands are two pairs of Stands Unique Reflections.

I have been highly impressed with the Denon set, having auditioned them against the two-boxes-in-one Pioneer Susano SC-LX90, which was also very fine indeed and worth seeking out for an audition.

I set up the auto-room EQ upon receipt as the room is relatively small (I currently rent whilst in exile from my native Highlands) and so I was happily listening until one day my neighbours went on holiday and I decided to turn it off. Woo-hoo! I have never turned it on again since (even if I have to keep the volume down a lot of the time out of consideration...) I use in bridged 5 x 500W mode.

It is very easy to operate if not to move around as the POA is one serious lump of metal...60Kg...and the AVP just under half that weight. The controls and remotes are a delight after the initial panic - it is deceptively complex at first.

The Denon Bluray is an excellent CD player as well. I am unsure how popular the PMC ('Professional Monitor Company') speakers are in the States but they are fine little boxes, and the PV1 delivers the goods with aplomb (and style!) with a small footprint too.

As to the new bubinga Spires... they may become the front speakers in my HT or a new two-channel set-up in another room e.g. with my MD109 and a Sonos ZP90. Then I can dream of a second-hand amp to drive them...

I also covet Finite Elemente Pagode supports for all my amps, esp. the 20th Anniv MF kW 5-box ltd. edn. set but I will need to save up for those as they are rarely available second-hand.

In the UK we have relatively few really good dealerships but those that are in my experience truly
exceptional in that they offer superb old-fashioned customer service irrespective of budget include: Doug at Doug Brady Hi-Fi in Warrington, Steve at Martins Hi-Fi in Norwich, Tony at TLC Broadcast in Borehamwood (Pioneer specialist); Branko at Audiofreaks in Richmond and Tony at Acoustic Arts, near Luton (my friendly ML specialist!).

Prices have really soared here of late for both N. American and Japanese imports e.g. this Denon pair have just risen by 40% (which mercifully I narrowly avoided) so ex-demo pairs are now being keenly sought out by Denon fans

Happy listening. The music matters more than the kit, after all!

Best wishes to the supremely eclectic membership of the MLC,

 

[Findhelp]

Thanks for the introduction

What great systems you have... wow... So tell me, I assume you've listened at some point to 2 channel audio through the Denon system... How does it sound? How does it sound in comparison with your dedicated 2 channel system? Specifically I'm curious about the gigantic amp - Just in the last few days asking around, I've heard such broad ranging comments... everything from it being every bit a high end an audiophile amp (clean, quiet, neutral, effortless power etc.) as the best audiophile multichannel amps out there, to one dealer (albeit one that doesn't carry the Denon amp) describing it to me as "a nice amp if you're looking for a mid-line product, that's what Denon is..." but that it can't compare with any of the "high end" audio component manufacturer's amps

I'd love to hear your take on those comments...

 

[Polarbear]

Denon in 2-channel mode

Thanks.

I have probably used it in 2-channel mode for less than 10% of the time, but have been very pleased with the performance. It certainly has effortless power

Comparison with my other amp is more difficult as they are driving very different speakers, and are way too heavy to swap around.

I will however treat myself to a 2-channel 'audition' session on the Denon tonight or tomorrow depending on work commitments, and come back with some notes.

I haven't had a high turnover of audiophile equipment, and have attended few high-end shows (CO here I come one day!), so I don't have a wide set of reference points, and I certainly make no great claims for my ear...or indeed my ability to accurately describe what I hear - but will have a go!