Heading to listen to the CLX in Seattle !

[David Matz]

CAP, it's so amazing how ML built that bass panel. Like nothing I've ever heard from an ESL before. The drum hits were so pronounced, like you said.... so real. huge soundstage... Just astonishing!

Dude... fight this clx strain of joey-itis as long as you can... It got the better of me and the Summits have made me at peace with my system again..... (for now)...

Rock on!

Tom,

How do you compare the bass of the CLX to the Summit? I have heard that the CLX has a better bass soundstage because it comes from the panel itself rather than from the woofers at the bottom of the speakers. Did you experience that also?

Thanks

 

[TomDac]

Tom,

How do you compare the bass of the CLX to the Summit? I have heard that the CLX has a better bass soundstage because it comes from the panel itself rather than from the woofers at the bottom of the speakers. Did you experience that also?

Thanks

with the Summit, you definitely notice where the bass is coming from.. Of course my system isn't 100% dialed in yet.

With the CLX, the bass comes from everywhere.. It's just part of what you're hearing. Very smooth and well defined. The Summit is a fine speaker, don't get me wrong, but comparing it to the CLX is really hard, as the CLX is SO much better in every way.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

David,
I can say that when I heard them the bass is immediate andin your face more than a woofer. I believe the difference is in the thecnology of the "reproducer". A speaker does give a wider dispersion and at times fills a room with a lot of sound, dispersion and added reflection. With the CLX's panel-woofer I would say that it ipushes directly to you more than room filling with reflections. It is almost like listening to an electric bass from back in the room to standing in front and hearing it before reflections/directions.

The Summit has plenty of bass and I would not discount it for lacking in comparison only different in presentation to the CLX.

Jeff

 

[Rich]

Great review, CAP. Glad you got to participate in this personal audition.

I think the thing we all have to learn from this (again) is to not be too judgmental when ML releases new speakers until you see and hear them for yourselves. When the Summit and Vantages first came out, everyone was up in arms about how awful they looked and how a panel that small couldn't sound good, but we have grown to love them because, although a radical departure from previous designs, they really do look good and they sound incredible.

Likewise, when the CLX was first unveiled, people were complaining about how ugly they were and how terrible it was that they only went down to 56 hz. (In fact, I think CAP was one of the ones most upset about that aspect). But, it sounds like when you see them in person they look alright, and when you hear them your jaw drops in disbelief. That's what it is all about.

 

[C.A.P]

Great review, CAP. Glad you got to participate in this personal audition.

I think the thing we all have to learn from this (again) is to not be too judgmental when ML releases new speakers until you see and hear them for yourselves. When the Summit and Vantages first came out, everyone was up in arms about how awful they looked and how a panel that small couldn't sound good, but we have grown to love them because, although a radical departure from previous designs, they really do look good and they sound incredible.

Likewise, when the CLX was first unveiled, people were complaining about how ugly they were and how terrible it was that they only went down to 56 hz. (In fact, I think CAP was one of the ones most upset about that aspect). But, it sounds like when you see them in person they look alright, and when you hear them your jaw drops in disbelief. That's what it is all about.

Yes I was a bit upset about the 56 hz. It stemmed from my CLS saying it does 35 hz . I have been known to stuff my foot in my mouth ! I was wrong and give ML a full apology about my early conclusions. I was not thinking outside the box. I was holding on to the old school designs. (I love a good classic) What they have done with the CLX is amazing !

The bass from the Summit and a Prodigy which both have twin 10 inch woofers is good but its just not as tight and blending ! There is no separation between bass mid bass and high end. The Summit and the Prodigy are world class speakers in their own way. Its just that the CLX is better and not a little ! A LOT !....

As I said they actually have to re design their lower line to keep the gap somewhat close as these are worlds ahead of the other designs in the line.

 

[twich54]

Geez Louise CAP....I think I need to change my diapers ! wow !!!

I've got a call into Terry @ Overture as to when they will have a pair in, he plans on a Martin Logan party to celebrate it so I'll keep all those in the Mid-Atlantic area informed.

 

[Joey_V]

With a lot of ML-fans on this site raving about this speaker, I have no doubt that it is a fantastic one.

There's a set up in a dealer near me, but I'm going to have to exercise some restraint because I do not want myself to be miserable with my current system.

If these guys are truly that good, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with a pair in 3 years.

Maybe by that time, the way ML goes, there'd be a CLXi!

 

[johnwa]

Great summary C.A.P and having just come off of the day #2 experience personally I can tell you that you made a great impression on the guys from Martin Logan, McIntosh, and Magnolia as they were talking about the ML forum guy from Michigan with CLS's last night.

Not much to add to C.A.P's thorough review and commentary other than to confirm everythign he and Tom have already stated and to say they are indeed the most impressive overall speaker I have ever heard. Completely transparent, natural, deep, wide, and realistic.

I was there for almost 2 hours (got there a tad late but they stayed a little longer) and it was a fairly small crowd on day two. There was two rows of five chairs with the sweet spot being a pretty healthy leather chair in the middle(front row and back) with standard/chairs flanking them. There were a few people standing in the back and on the sides and we all switched chairs periodically in some kind of reverse and preverse musical chair game to alternate after every few songs so that everyone had a chance to get the full impact etc. I can honestly say that these speakers sounded amazing from every perspective and that included standing in the back of the room and on off center to one side. However, during my time in the big chair in the front and in the center there were a few tracks that just took my breath away. As already reported the drums and depth of these speakers are unparalled from anything I have experienced and you can literally hear every nuance, strike, beat, and tone of each different piece in the drum kit.

They played some pages to show off vocals (male and female), instramentation, etc and also to demonstrate the bass. Everything was unbelievable but I would reiterate that the bass is deep, pure, natural, but perhaps a little different that what you have heard before. That is not to imply anythign negative about it at all and quite the contrary it is a joy and very satisfying but not in your face. I personally would not drive a sub(s) in normal 2 channel listening with these speakers either but the team there did make a couple of interesting comments. The talked a bit about the technology and it is clear they are justifably proud of what they have accomplished. They talked about bass response rolling off at around 30db in general (all speakers) but talked about the room effects and a little science but I was just focusing on how good they sounded period. That said, they were quick to point out that the addition of a depth should satisfy anyone and that they are an ideal marrage for those who might want something different or are incorporating into an HT set up. The most interesting point that came up during that commentary was something about how when ML designed the depth, they did so with a CLS setting even though one has been in market for a while and the other in production for years. Apparently there is some tweak (should have followed up on that sorry) or standard config that blend the two perfectly.

All that aside, the only other thing I would mention that C.A.P may have not gotten into directly, was the complementary equipment from McIntosh. I am a huge Mc fan but there were driving the CLX's with equipment with far and away better than what I have and matching the total package and experience would be very expensive. There were (2) 300 watt mono Tube blocks, a high end Tube Pre, and what looked to be a number of other seperate componets (all Mac and all lucious) that I am sure helped with the full transparency a great deal. They were not shy about driving the speakers or the equipment either as they peaked those tube monos on several passages but at no time was it anything but enjoyable or awe-inspiring.

Great event by three great companies (the three M's) ML, McIntosh, and Magnolia. No pressure from anyone at all and just helpful passionate people who seemed to be enjoying the CLX's as much as any of us who were there.

I set myself up for the sale pitch at the end and it never really came other than to be pointed out that there is a 36 months financing program (Magnolia only and limited I beleive) and that if interested in the 25th anniversay edition examples, I would have to move fast as they beleive they may sell out of them by the end of this month.

Take that for what its worth but I am lnow ooking in between seat cushions, checking phone booths for quarters, considering a bake sale, car wash, etc to see if I can get into range. These speakers are indeed good enough to test that last nerve my wife keeps reminding me about which I beleive I may have already frayed a few weeks ago.

For those of you in the Seattle area that want a last short or glimpse of these beauties, I beieve they are moving them to the University/Rosevelt store prior to shipping them to some other place on the tour. Call Rocky at the Bellevue store for details or find a place to listen to them personally (like Divinci) as you won't be disapointed.

 

[JonFo]

C.A.P and JohnWA, thanks for the additional comments.

From your descriptions, the new bass panel is indeed revolutionary. I really need to hear it myself.

I feel temptation creeping up

Since it’s actually smaller than the Monolith, it would slide right into my room.

 

[FatJ]

C.A.P and JohnWA, thanks for the additional comments.

From your descriptions, the new bass panel is indeed revolutionary. I really need to hear it myself.

I feel temptation creeping up

Since it’s actually smaller than the Monolith, it would slide right into my room.

But will they sell you 3???? :devil:

Gotta get the center too!!!

 

[JonFo]

But will they sell you 3???? :devil:

Gotta get the center too!!!

Heh, I actually need them to sell me some DualForce panels so I can Augment the panel from a Spire and roll my own.

The CLX main panel is too long for the center location. I need 4' or so mid-high panel as well as a 4' mid-bass panel.

So I'll have to build my own CLX companion center, sounds like fun

 

[jfm]

thanks for another CLX review! can't wait to hear it (and to have the extra pennies to bring it home)

We've speculated a lot about this speaker since 2006. Looks like a lot of us were wrong about many things, including me. I didn't foresee they would be this big, or that they would produce so much bass without a sub.

Here's one of the few ones that seemed to come true...

While we're still in speculation mode, allow me to attempt to peer into the near future...

Traditionalists will not like the way it looks. Progressive types will immediately embrace the new look. Many in the middle will initially air their disappointment. Initial reports from the field from those who see the CLX will contain the familiar phrase, “it looks better in person.” Over time, the CLX will look more normal to most.

 

[Wildblue]

Kinda funny... I'm from Alaska, and just happened to be in Seattle this week, too. I stopped by Magnolia on Monday, and when I found out that this demo was taking place, I actually extended my trip so I could go listen. I'm wondered if my next speaker upgrade will be Martin Logans, so I really wanted to take a listen to this rare opportunity.

So, I made it there Friday night. Somebody actually asked me if I was "Cap"... had no idea who they meant, but now that I've Googled to find this forum and saw this thread, I guess I know now! (must have been my CEDIA polo shirt I had on)

Wow, that was amazing. I actually stayed the whole time, and was the last guy to leave. Quite a fun evening of listening, even if you don't consider the speaker evaluation. Very detailed, responsive sound. As mentioned, the drum recording was spot-on and tight. The imaging was astounding--at one point in the drum track, I actually heard cymbals come from the right side of the room, PAST the right speaker! Totally blew me away.

Once I got in the center "sweet spot" chair, I didn't want to leave, but also wanted to be fair to the other fellas, so I spent a lot of time in the chair next to center, too. I actually noticed a smallish, but noticeable change in the sound moving that 2-3 feet from that chair directly into the center. (which also sat about 1.5 feet lower) The imaging was more precise, and more than anything, the sound became fuller and the bass really became alive.

So when it was all over, I actually talked to the guys about a CLX purchase. I'm pretty sure I made up my mind--those are the speakers for me. Magnolia offered a 36 month financing with no interest, which was just too enticing. I called up my wife to discuss it, (I know, I know... fire away) and we decided that it just isn't the right time. So unfortunately, I have to put the purchase on hold. That's a big chunk of $$$. But I'm glad I went to the demo, so I could know for sure!

 

[DTB300]

There is always the issue of how much better is something for the price you have to pay? Jeff Z and I both agree we liked the Summit when it came out but was it worth the extra cash over our CLS? No. The Summit were nice, but different sounding, not better in our opinions.

Jeff has heard the CLX and we have talked about the difference between the CLS and CLX and the cost associated with it. I believes he agrees the CLX is probably the best ML other than the Statements. But one has to think about the cost involved.

For CLS owners....If you have your CLS which cost $6k new back in the day, but most of us got to pick them up used for $2k-$3k. Now you have the CLX to consider. Cost difference between CLS and CLX is $14k - $17k. With your current electronics in mind you purchase the CLX. Then you need to compare your CLS where you can spend $14k - $17k to upgrade your setup and room. Which would be the better sounding setup?

Tough question as you would never really know until you did it, but one likes to think new technology is always a better step forward.

And to Tonepub's statement about the bass being able to play loudly, I guess the HT fanatics will be disappointed as levels always seem to be their main decision point for low end.

 

[C.A.P]

There is always the issue of how much better is something for the price you have to pay? Jeff Z and I both agree we liked the Summit when it came out but was it worth the extra cash over our CLS? No. The Summit were nice, but different sounding, not better in our opinions.
I to was skeptical of the Summits as they are a different design with the new micro perf technology. When I heard them set up right they did sound good. Different than my CLS for sure. Better ,??? I don't know. Bass was obviously better but detail was close on both speakers. That says something for a 20 year old design. As I have stated before the CLS down fall was it NEEDS to be driven by a High end type amp and that the audio world was changing , heading towards micro sub sat systems. When set up right with the right ancilaries the CLS is a great speaker that will hold its own . Can it compete with the likes of the CLX .......NOPE ! That is not a insult as I run them . Its just that the newer technology has surpassed them. The 57 Chevy was a great car but new technology has made them better more efficient !
Jeff has heard the CLX and we have talked about the difference between the CLS and CLX and the cost associated with it. I believes he agrees the CLX is probably the best ML other than the Statements. But one has to think about the cost involved. I think 20K for a speaker that does what the CLX can do is not out of the park. Consider the price of a CLS at release they were somewhere in the $3200 to $3500 and when the ran their last run they were at $5000 to $6500. Now we Know not just inflation plays a role but the cost of new technology and new designs. Patents and research is not like the $$$ it can go up in value fast ! The down fall is it can fall fast ! Like any business owner you want to capitalize when the market is hot.After listening to them and what the new technology can do . I think they are priced accordingly. Would I like them cheaper YES ! We all would but research and design costs $$.

For CLS owners....If you have your CLS which cost $6k new back in the day, but most of us got to pick them up used for $2k-$3k. Now you have the CLX to consider. Cost difference between CLS and CLX is $14k - $17k. With your current electronics in mind you purchase the CLX. Then you need to compare your CLS where you can spend $14k - $17k to upgrade your setup and room. Which would be the better sounding setup? This I can tell you I could spend 40k on new equipment and NOT get the sonic results as the CLX . The Equipment I run is considered WORLD class ! The Krell amps have very little rivals. The KPS25sc was regarded as a benchmark product by many reviewers and audiophiles. That alone with the New CAST cabling, Speaker cabling and room treatment constitutes to a retail cost of $50k give or take. There are a few more room treatments that may help but "you are not making a silk purse out of a sows ear" as the saying goes. Now Dont get me wrong. As I stated the CLS is a world class speaker that has a 20 year or better history. That alone stands for something. Its my reference, FOR NOW ! You just cant get the CLS to run the SPL the detail the bass the complete package !

Tough question as you would never really know until you did it, but one likes to think new technology is always a better step forward.

And to Tonepub's statement about the bass being able to play loudly, I guess the HT fanatics will be disappointed as levels always seem to be their main decision point for low end.

It would be a sin to use this speaker for HT use! It would perform but HT does not have the potential to bring out the sonic benifits this speaker can produce !

 

[DTB300]

Can it compete with the likes of the CLX .......NOPE ! That is not a insult as I run them . Its just that the newer technology has surpassed them.

Hard to say for me as I have heard the new Micro-Perf in the other models and to me it is just different, not better. The improved sensitivity of the newer models is what makes them better for all the users of the audio world and removes the high performance amp requirements/needs to drive them syndrome.

I do not think our opinions on what is better, no matter if it is new or old is an insult to anyone. It is just all of our opinions.

The Equipment I run is considered WORLD class ! The Krell amps have very little rivals. The KPS25sc was regarded as a benchmark product by many reviewers and audiophiles.

I know you love your Krell equipment, and that is the real bottom line in this hobby so it is great to hear you have found your audio nirvana. I am sorry to say I do not like any of the Krell amps since the days of the KSA and KMA models. To me Krell has tried to get by on their name and cost not performance of the past few years. But again just my opinion.

After listening to them and what the new technology can do . I think they are priced accordingly.

Based on what we are hearing about sales of the CLX, it appears to be priced right for the performance at this time. It will be interesting to see how it does in a year from now and will it suffer the sales issues which the CLS demise stemmed from.

 

[nsgarch]

CLS sales decline

I want to remind people that the "sales decline" of the CLS and a lot of other large speakers of the time: Maggie Tympani, KLH-9 , the original Statement -- basically, anything larger than a 2 foot door ! was due not to any inherent performance problems, but to the introduction (c.a. 1960) and popularity of the bookshelf design (and its acoustic suspension woofer) combined with the simultaneous appearance of small high-powered SS stereo amps which allowed the bookshelf design to literally throw away half the woofer output. All that and they could fit on a bookshelf making decorating and placement a snap (if you were OK with the Phil Spector, 'Wall 'O Sound' presentation )

I think the audio sector has pretty much gotten over the bookshelf/acoustic-suspension thing and gone on to produce some pretty respectable hi-performance monitors; probably 50% of them ported these days, and mounted on stands so they can produce a proper image.

I'll always be addicted to stats and dealing with their physical size, but with the shrinking availability of domestic space, a super ribbon (such as in the Dali) could be a future solution.

 

[Craig]

...All that and they could fit on a bookshelf making decorating and placement a snap (if you were OK with the Phil Spector, 'Wall 'O Sound' presentation )

Interesting that this is also the appeal of modern Bose systems.

 

[JonFo]

... Cost difference between CLS and CLX is $14k - $17k. With your current electronics in mind you purchase the CLX. Then you need to compare your CLS where you can spend $14k - $17k to upgrade your setup and room. Which would be the better sounding setup?
...

I'd put most of that towards room treatments and believe that most would benefit more.

I've found that in the eight years I've been messing with my Monoliths and the room they are in (which was designed around them), I've had more significant results from the room treatments than from almost anything else I've done. It's all additive of course. But I now recommend people start with the room and then change other stuff once the room basics are covered.

And this is from the guy who loves the tech toys

 

[C.A.P]

Hard to say for me as I have heard the new Micro-Perf in the other models and to me it is just different, not better. The improved sensitivity of the newer models is what makes them better for all the users of the audio world and removes the high performance amp requirements/needs to drive them syndrome. I do agree to some extent that the amp is not as criticle to the powered versions of the newer woofer designs. However; The new CLX has NO woofer and the Micro perf with its new bass panels are nothing like what you have heard.

I do not think our opinions on what is better, no matter if it is new or old is an insult to anyone. It is just all of our opinions.




I know you love your Krell equipment, and that is the real bottom line in this hobby so it is great to hear you have found your audio nirvana. I am sorry to say I do not like any of the Krell amps since the days of the KSA and KMA models. To me Krell has tried to get by on their name and cost not performance of the past few years. But again just my opinion.

Opinions do vary ! If I had your reference equipment of choice , I could not get the sound from my CLS that the CLX would produce. Its not equipment or room treatment. " Yes you can buy a German car like a Volkswagen but you do not have a Porsche performance by putting Perellies on it !


Based on what we are hearing about sales of the CLX, it appears to be priced right for the performance at this time. It will be interesting to see how it does in a year from now and will it suffer the sales issues which the CLS demise stemmed from.

The CLS as stated , was not a bad speaker it just was in the wrong time and the right place for Sub Sat systems . They were taking the market by storm. Easy to drive easy to hide.

I'd put most of that towards room treatments and believe that most would benefit more.

I've found that in the eight years I've been messing with my Monoliths and the room they are in (which was designed around them), I've had more significant results from the room treatments than from almost anything else I've done. It's all additive of course. But I now recommend people start with the room and then change other stuff once the room basics are covered.

And this is from the guy who loves the tech toys

I to believe that room treatment is KEY to the sound of our speakers . A good room will make a decent speaker sound better,but it will not take a speaker that does not have the SPL or ability to reproduce the band width evenly to that level.

My recommendations to you all, is go listen and expect to be taken on a audio roller coaster of good times !