Get more bias volts
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Bias is the weekest link on ML.
Well can not get R24 R23 out, thay show the bias Xfourm. 90acv not 120 acv on pim.on secd. output is befourZ3 is cut 140acv after cut 190acv. NOW that z3 is cut i can get R24 an R23 OUT. Now bias Xfourmer secd.220acv now this is about 4k370 to high for mySL3s an Aerius i so i use a Variac to breing it down. An now the V is up not sure Music Sensc part of the board my not be to take the Higher V. So i got it all out cut the land befourD15an c19 an run the neg. input to d15 an c19 an cut D8 D9 an R8 now just the bias is working an the Sound is way better,All the Brightness in the SL3 is gone with R23R24 out all togather a pot can be added but dose not sound as good as the Variac .
thanks
Well can not get R24 R23 out, thay show the bias Xfourm. 90acv not 120 acv on pim.on secd. output is befourZ3 is cut 140acv after cut 190acv. NOW that z3 is cut i can get R24 an R23 OUT. Now bias Xfourmer secd.220acv now this is about 4k370 to high for mySL3s an Aerius i so i use a Variac to breing it down. An now the V is up not sure Music Sensc part of the board my not be to take the Higher V. So i got it all out cut the land befourD15an c19 an run the neg. input to d15 an c19 an cut D8 D9 an R8 now just the bias is working an the Sound is way better,All the Brightness in the SL3 is gone with R23R24 out all togather a pot can be added but dose not sound as good as the Variac .
thanks
Bernard
Well-known member
I have trouble deciphering the last post. 
Get better sound out of all ML
It all about the bias with ESLs
i have ML Aerius i SL3 soundlab A3s an a lot of Acoustats.
an all the bias can be upgreaded.An in the logans it one way to get the sound out that i paid for not some wek panels! so if we look at the High v. board we see two 3w 1k800 ohm in sears with the bias xfourm.
Bad for sound but thats ther way thay set it up.
so all i did is to use the board for the bias only not the sensing on/off just the bias
so got the R24 an R23 out an there is no peks on the top
of my SL3 less brightness an i put a 30ohm 1w earth neg. leg not the Amps neg. never saw that, an what is the stepup xfourm for the panels set up in a S.E. an not pushpull all i can fig. is thay wont to sale panels ok
well all that meanes is thay are a lot of ML that the panels all well putout a lot more an sound a lot better in a pushpull set up! an at 2k400v goodluck the Aerius can take4k an get 3-4db more output, an as the panels get more v the bass gets better go figg.
thanks
It all about the bias with ESLs
i have ML Aerius i SL3 soundlab A3s an a lot of Acoustats.
an all the bias can be upgreaded.An in the logans it one way to get the sound out that i paid for not some wek panels! so if we look at the High v. board we see two 3w 1k800 ohm in sears with the bias xfourm.
Bad for sound but thats ther way thay set it up.
so all i did is to use the board for the bias only not the sensing on/off just the bias
so got the R24 an R23 out an there is no peks on the top
of my SL3 less brightness an i put a 30ohm 1w earth neg. leg not the Amps neg. never saw that, an what is the stepup xfourm for the panels set up in a S.E. an not pushpull all i can fig. is thay wont to sale panels ok
well all that meanes is thay are a lot of ML that the panels all well putout a lot more an sound a lot better in a pushpull set up! an at 2k400v goodluck the Aerius can take4k an get 3-4db more output, an as the panels get more v the bass gets better go figg.
thanks
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
get better sound wit arius pannls…
I also have ML Aerius, not i or SL3 sound lab A3s an lots of Acoustats though.
an I not try upgraded all the bias in the logans it get the sound out that i
paid for my panels not some wek! so i not look at the High v. board to see two 3w 1k800
ohm in sears with the bias xfourm. they set it up that’s ther way! i like the peks on the top
of my Aerius less brightness not needed an i not put earth neg. leg not the Amps neg. never
saw that, neither. i like that sale panels ok can fig. is leg not the Amps neg?
thanks for good luck the Aerius can take4k an get more output, an all go figg!
also thanks ther for troll, not two much thou.
I also have ML Aerius, not i or SL3 sound lab A3s an lots of Acoustats though.
an I not try upgraded all the bias in the logans it get the sound out that i
paid for my panels not some wek! so i not look at the High v. board to see two 3w 1k800
ohm in sears with the bias xfourm. they set it up that’s ther way! i like the peks on the top
of my Aerius less brightness not needed an i not put earth neg. leg not the Amps neg. never
saw that, neither. i like that sale panels ok can fig. is leg not the Amps neg?
thanks for good luck the Aerius can take4k an get more output, an all go figg!
also thanks ther for troll, not two much thou.
Last edited:
well did not upload? but thanks
Funny TROLL sounds like a bad panel to me!My Aerius i an my SL3 allso show no center tap but there is one but it not used now this is how thay get way with LOW bias!
If you use the center tap you get a lot more output.
An higher bias an every thing sounds more like a ESL.
As you can see in this high V board two thing are there BIAS is the red all the rest are neg. amp input!SO NO pushpull!
thanks
Funny TROLL sounds like a bad panel to me!My Aerius i an my SL3 allso show no center tap but there is one but it not used now this is how thay get way with LOW bias!
If you use the center tap you get a lot more output.
An higher bias an every thing sounds more like a ESL.
As you can see in this high V board two thing are there BIAS is the red all the rest are neg. amp input!SO NO pushpull!
thanks
Attachments
![sl3xc crossoverdiagram[1].jpg](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/martinloganowners/data/attach/4/4978-sl3xc-crossoverdiagram-1-.jpg)
I speak geek better than most, but I'm still unclear what the point is
TubeVibb, correct spelling and grammar will help. Otherwise we can't understand what you are trying to communicate.
TubeVibb, correct spelling and grammar will help. Otherwise we can't understand what you are trying to communicate.
all ESLs i have seen are pushpull
Jonfo Can you tell me what you call the m. logan setup is between the Xfourm. an the panel ???
Looks like a tube S.E. set up to me, well you say?
it not PUSH pull so you have got the frount of the panel on the crossover NEG......... I would think as much work that you put in to your center that is the BEST i have ever seen.
that you would have ??????
My SL3 had a pushey, brightness, an when i went to the push pull Xfourm. setup an got the cen. tap in an got the bias up from 2k400 to 3k800 it sounds like silk an the bass is much better!
It all about the SOUND!
thanks
Jonfo Can you tell me what you call the m. logan setup is between the Xfourm. an the panel ???
Looks like a tube S.E. set up to me, well you say?
it not PUSH pull so you have got the frount of the panel on the crossover NEG......... I would think as much work that you put in to your center that is the BEST i have ever seen.
that you would have ??????
My SL3 had a pushey, brightness, an when i went to the push pull Xfourm. setup an got the cen. tap in an got the bias up from 2k400 to 3k800 it sounds like silk an the bass is much better!
It all about the SOUND!
thanks
this is PUSHPULL
the Aerius an the SL3 are the same Xfourms setup like your SL3 center
you can see what jim sent the center tap is on the crossover neg.ok
but your panels an my Aerius an SL3 were not setup that way.
I only wont the best sound for myself an others i lov my Logans!
thanks for your time
the Aerius an the SL3 are the same Xfourms setup like your SL3 center
you can see what jim sent the center tap is on the crossover neg.ok
but your panels an my Aerius an SL3 were not setup that way.
I only wont the best sound for myself an others i lov my Logans!
thanks for your time
OK, I think I have enough to parse the posts from TubeVibb, so here goes:
TubeVibb, I think you are obsessing about the fact that some SL3’s and your Aerius do not use the center tap output from the Audio step-up transformer. Sounds like you believe it’s ‘unbalanced’ to not have a common reference in the stator (outer metallic panels) elements and this somehow causes it to not do a ‘push-pull’ (that the front stator pulls, while the rear repels, and vice versa as it tracks the signal).
This is NOT the case. While some ML designs do use the center tap of the audio transformer, it’s perfectly legit to use the input ground signal as the ground feed to the Diaphragm high-voltage board.
Again, it’s OK to use the audio signal ground from either the center tap or from the binding posts to get a ground reference for the high-voltage.
The Stator ‘push-pull’ is controlled by the difference in the input signals. The output of the audio step-up transformer has two outer taps, a positive and a negative, the positive goes to the rear stator and the negative to the front stator, this is basic ESL design. The fact that the positive is on the rear of the panel just has to do with the fact that the high-pass crossover inverts phase.
So, these versions DO indeed do the correct ‘push-pull’ basic ESL behavior.
As for high-voltage bias, that’s a whole ‘nother topic. If you increase diaphragm bias voltage, it will play slightly louder, but also can pick up a slight hissing sound if overdone. This is an area of ESL design that has had much discussion. If you want to read more about that, I suggest you spend a few hours reading the threads over here at the DIYAudio ESL loudspeaker forum: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=54
Given that you had trouble with the basic ESL theory, I’d recommend leaving the whole mess alone. These speakers sound great from the factory, and you can get much better improvements from them by treating the room with acoustic tuning and working on ideal placement.
TubeVibb, I think you are obsessing about the fact that some SL3’s and your Aerius do not use the center tap output from the Audio step-up transformer. Sounds like you believe it’s ‘unbalanced’ to not have a common reference in the stator (outer metallic panels) elements and this somehow causes it to not do a ‘push-pull’ (that the front stator pulls, while the rear repels, and vice versa as it tracks the signal).
This is NOT the case. While some ML designs do use the center tap of the audio transformer, it’s perfectly legit to use the input ground signal as the ground feed to the Diaphragm high-voltage board.
Again, it’s OK to use the audio signal ground from either the center tap or from the binding posts to get a ground reference for the high-voltage.
The Stator ‘push-pull’ is controlled by the difference in the input signals. The output of the audio step-up transformer has two outer taps, a positive and a negative, the positive goes to the rear stator and the negative to the front stator, this is basic ESL design. The fact that the positive is on the rear of the panel just has to do with the fact that the high-pass crossover inverts phase.
So, these versions DO indeed do the correct ‘push-pull’ basic ESL behavior.
As for high-voltage bias, that’s a whole ‘nother topic. If you increase diaphragm bias voltage, it will play slightly louder, but also can pick up a slight hissing sound if overdone. This is an area of ESL design that has had much discussion. If you want to read more about that, I suggest you spend a few hours reading the threads over here at the DIYAudio ESL loudspeaker forum: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=54
Given that you had trouble with the basic ESL theory, I’d recommend leaving the whole mess alone. These speakers sound great from the factory, and you can get much better improvements from them by treating the room with acoustic tuning and working on ideal placement.
thanks for your input
i just though that if jim had NO! Schematic for Aerius SL3 Quest none..........
that shows any set up but the one with the cen. tap yoused that may be it was not Right. An from a sound stand point i was right.
An if you think that you need to Talk down to anyone thats good for you. who ever you are!
i gess that you did not bring it up so you dont have much time for it an that ok.
BUT if you wont the best sound you better get the cen.tap in the mix.
One of my amps an OTL has a balanced Differential output no ground!
an none of my amps have earth coming in from the wall
So you thinks floting one side of the Xfourmer is going to give fulloutput. an GOOD sound.
An for the Bias if you never wont to have to get a new set of panels All you have to do is get it to where it should be. 3k800 not 2k400
thanks
i just though that if jim had NO! Schematic for Aerius SL3 Quest none..........
that shows any set up but the one with the cen. tap yoused that may be it was not Right. An from a sound stand point i was right.
An if you think that you need to Talk down to anyone thats good for you. who ever you are!
i gess that you did not bring it up so you dont have much time for it an that ok.
BUT if you wont the best sound you better get the cen.tap in the mix.
One of my amps an OTL has a balanced Differential output no ground!
an none of my amps have earth coming in from the wall
So you thinks floting one side of the Xfourmer is going to give fulloutput. an GOOD sound.
An for the Bias if you never wont to have to get a new set of panels All you have to do is get it to where it should be. 3k800 not 2k400
thanks
not good for me but it good for you!
Originally Posted by Peter Hogan
Hi,
Double check the high voltage wiring. The ML's I've seen have the transformer outputs going to both stators, and the bias high voltage between the transformer output center tap (that you haven't shown) and the diaphragm film. That way the transformer signal drives one stator negative, the other stator positive, and vice versa for the other half of the waveform, for a push-pull effect on the diaphragm.
Peter
Thanks Peter. You are correct that some models have the step-up wired as you describe. There are schematics floating about that depict the orange tap feeding the front stator and the gray wire feeding the rear, with a center tap feeding the high voltage board. [Nothing on the board but crossover neg. an HIGH v BIAS NO EARTH!]
However, the SL3 units I have are wired as I described. I didn't even disconnect the stock wires from the High-Voltage board, xformer nor the connector.
On my xformer, {all other taps are wrapped down and unused} as you can see in the pic. So no center output tap was ever used. {I well bet no one reveiwed an ML with out the center used}
{This had me scratching my head for a while}, but given that it’s the stock wiring (and I have pics of ‘before’ to double-check, plus the other SL3 unit, {I feel comfortable this is correct.}{ thats good for you but what about others an is it RIGHT..}
It looks like ML had a design change in the HV board at some point as my boards are from Feb of ’98.
So anyone reading this and planning a mod to their ESL drives should take this into consideration,{ as there are various modes of wiring}{ well ML has NO Schematic but the one with the cen. tap used.......} these things depending on which rev of the HV board you have.
__________________
Jonathan
Thanks
Originally Posted by Peter Hogan
Hi,
Double check the high voltage wiring. The ML's I've seen have the transformer outputs going to both stators, and the bias high voltage between the transformer output center tap (that you haven't shown) and the diaphragm film. That way the transformer signal drives one stator negative, the other stator positive, and vice versa for the other half of the waveform, for a push-pull effect on the diaphragm.
Peter
Thanks Peter. You are correct that some models have the step-up wired as you describe. There are schematics floating about that depict the orange tap feeding the front stator and the gray wire feeding the rear, with a center tap feeding the high voltage board. [Nothing on the board but crossover neg. an HIGH v BIAS NO EARTH!]
However, the SL3 units I have are wired as I described. I didn't even disconnect the stock wires from the High-Voltage board, xformer nor the connector.
On my xformer, {all other taps are wrapped down and unused} as you can see in the pic. So no center output tap was ever used. {I well bet no one reveiwed an ML with out the center used}
{This had me scratching my head for a while}, but given that it’s the stock wiring (and I have pics of ‘before’ to double-check, plus the other SL3 unit, {I feel comfortable this is correct.}{ thats good for you but what about others an is it RIGHT..}
It looks like ML had a design change in the HV board at some point as my boards are from Feb of ’98.
So anyone reading this and planning a mod to their ESL drives should take this into consideration,{ as there are various modes of wiring}{ well ML has NO Schematic but the one with the cen. tap used.......} these things depending on which rev of the HV board you have.
__________________
Jonathan
Thanks
A Variac?
A Variac will make no difference that I could tell, especially on the regulated supplies. An all ML from the Aerius I or any that sins.an Turn on an off. so you can use the Variac to turn the V down if you turn it up you could let the smoke out of the Zener regulater an the sins. part of the board needs to see lower v. allso thats why thay put to R24 R23 in frount of the bias Xfourm to drop the V.on the Board from 120ac coming in to 90Ac .Never like Zener string regulated set up thay all sounds bad! Thats why i got all of it out of my Aerius an SL3 an just setup the bias an Never had Better sound.
Thanks
A Variac will make no difference that I could tell, especially on the regulated supplies. An all ML from the Aerius I or any that sins.an Turn on an off. so you can use the Variac to turn the V down if you turn it up you could let the smoke out of the Zener regulater an the sins. part of the board needs to see lower v. allso thats why thay put to R24 R23 in frount of the bias Xfourm to drop the V.on the Board from 120ac coming in to 90Ac .Never like Zener string regulated set up thay all sounds bad! Thats why i got all of it out of my Aerius an SL3 an just setup the bias an Never had Better sound.
Thanks
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