ESL finer positioning & placement

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day maties,
Hope you all are enjoying those fine tunes...

Just a few updates; helped a chap set up his Maggie 20.7's driven with Parasound monoblocks & matching preamp. I was thinking to myself, what a great match up! Very nice inner detail, resolution, transparency and that sort of thing. Real vfm, untouchable in this regard. Then I noticed one area that really stood out was the soundstage depth, we had setup the panels over 5ft away from the front wall, so I checked and we had placed them at 6ft away. So the two of us sat there and listened for at 3hrs straight, that immersive soundstage was superb!

Then just last week, I had another chap visit and wanted to listen to my modded CJ amps with the CLX's, and so we listened for nearly 4hrs... He's a Quad ESL fan, and has highly modded his Quads, inside out completely different. Using very high grade Mundorf & Duelands, which I adopted from his design into some of my own mods, his Quads really perform on a whole new level.

He's also quite critical and will call a spade a spade. So as we listened towards the first hour into a Patricia Barber track on her album Smash, he yelled out, RJ maaate, your CLX's are too close to the wall damit! I said whaaat? Since it was fairly loud... then I turned it down and listened to what he had to say. The CLX's have triple stators on their bass panels. It's a force to reckon with and one that's not an easy task for most amplifiers to grip, let alone drive the tall mids & highs panels itself. Said that although my CJ amps are cruising along, the CLX's triple stators need ample room for them to be able to deliver deep fast bass and propel this bass with lightning speed.

So what's the verdict I asked? Move them further out by 1.5ft, nnd so we did! We moved everything else further by nearly 2ft, listening seat, L-shaped couchs, and dinning table, still ample room so that the wifey doesn't lose the plot...

Now he said, sit and have a listen... holy smackaroons!!! What a powerful, tight, well controlled lightning fast bass indeed! Really projects like bullet speed, with accurate deep thuds and razor sharp focus in bass strings, feels like it might cut! This is very similar to that level of LF detail I experienced with the ART300's driving the CLX's, not in terms of full power but that full grip and control on the triple stators. The speed, and acceleration in sudden rise & fall is spectacular! So this is what he was referring to, and funny thing is it was another forum member on CJO that mentioned moving these further away...

Now they are just over 6ft away from the front wall, about 6&1/2ft to be exact and slightly angled inwards with the mids & highs panels placed according to the owner's manual. The disappearing act remains the same, scale and all that is the same, the most significant changes are the soundstage depth and that bullet speed LF, superb!

So with that minor adjustment, I must shout out to all ESL owners, please bring your panels further out as possible! The larger the panel, especially those having two separate sections, larger stats, these things really need more room than you previously thought!

And yet, I learn something new again! Keep those tubes a glowing and keep enjoying those very fine tunes!
Cheers to stats! Best, RJ

 

[Robert D]

We have a member here that ended up not using his Martin Logans because the room was so big that the speakers were too far from the wall. I guess there is an optimal distance.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah yes, I can see this happening, no doubt.

The idea is to get that true 3D imaging reproduced perfectly between the panels, so that full soundstage affect takes place. It has a sort of enveloping affect, where the soundstage wraps around you, and fully immerses you in the presentation. Very similar to a camera lense, you can focus the right scale by careful placement and optimal positioning, and must also include the listening position.

Obviously if the room is far too big then average to small panel type speakers can get lost, will have weak bass and sound diffused.

For very large rooms, either the Neoliths, Statements or CLX's with subs will be perfect, and I've listened extensively to large setups of this nature. Amplfiers used ranged from, Dan D's Relentless and Momentum monoblocks, CH Precision, Solution, and of course CJ's ART300's, which are my reference systems all driving CLX's & Neoliths in very large rooms. Plenty of space and adequate musical waves to fill the room, thanks to serious levels of amplification.

What I learnt over the years, the trick here is that true dipole effect. Since panels are a box-less design, the room becomes the box! So, if you have an average good size room (20ft by 20ft square with 10ft ceilings), you can carefully position the stats so as to recreate that dipole effect in full glory. That 10 milliseconds delay is crucial in recreating that depth in soundstage. Then by adjusting your listening seat, you can tweak the soundstage depth towards an intimate setting or large setting. In an intimate setting, you'd probably be about 8 to 10ft away from the panels, with a good 5-6ft away from the front wall, and around 6-7ft apart with slight angle inwards. Then, depending on your amplifier needs, you really don't require 100s of watts to energise the room, plus you certainly don't want to over-energise the room either.

If you're in a very large setting, (room measuring over 30ft square with 10-12ft ceilings) it may be quite tricky to obtain that 10ms delay. In such cases what I've seen and experienced is, large system setups, not small. The stat panels (Statements Evo-II's) were about 10ft away from the front wall, about 12ft apart, and listening distance of around 15ft away. Similar setup done on the Infinity IRSV's. The soundstage was huge! Big bold and beautiful, obviously with the help of those typical Statement sub arrays designed in a tower system then having the Relentless monoblocks well capable of 3000w into 8 Ohms, 6000w into 4 Ohms and around 9000w into 2 Ohms. The full scale of the orchestra is right there in front of you! The band whatever they're playing is live and playing with all their heart & soul, and even on small jazz ensembles, the mighty Statements simply disappear! So these are very large setups in large settings...

So having large to very large rooms is really not an issue, as long as you've got the right setup. Obviously, that member who didn't have the gear nor the right panels for that very large room, would never find the right sound. How large exactly was this room? And was it properly setup, was it properly matched with the gear he had... there are far too many variables in play where every parameter of the room must be taken into consideration in order to set up panels optimally.

I must say, in this very large room where my mate has these beautiful Statements, apart from the Infinity IRSV's, he also has the Alsyvox ribbons and the Maggie 30.7's. Just recently he sold off the 30.7's to one of his sub-dealers to make way for the new Alsyvox Botichelli with out-board x-over. He's also taking first delivery of CJ's newest ART108A's that are tube monoblocks capable of 160w in Class A.

Hopefully, I'll be visiting once again in Feb, and each time I visit it's an awe-inspiring experience! So, no I don't think large rooms are an issue with "large ribbon panels or stats."

I have a feeling our forum member was trying to setup much smaller stats compared to any full range stats... in a large room? In which case they'll be lost. That makes sense.

Cheers, RJ

 

[Robert D]

Ah yes, I can see this happening, no doubt.

The idea is to get that true 3D imaging reproduced perfectly between the panels, so that full soundstage affect takes place. It has a sort of enveloping affect, where the soundstage wraps around you, and fully immerses you in the presentation. Very similar to a camera lense, you can focus the right scale by careful placement and optimal positioning, and must also include the listening position.

Obviously if the room is far too big then average to small panel type speakers can get lost, will have weak bass and sound diffused.

For very large rooms, either the Neoliths, Statements or CLX's with subs will be perfect, and I've listened extensively to large setups of this nature. Amplfiers used ranged from, Dan D's Relentless and Momentum monoblocks, CH Precision, Solution, and of course CJ's ART300's, which are my reference systems all driving CLX's & Neoliths in very large rooms. Plenty of space and adequate musical waves to fill the room, thanks to serious levels of amplification.

What I learnt over the years, the trick here is that true dipole effect. Since panels are a box-less design, the room becomes the box! So, if you have an average good size room (20ft by 20ft square with 10ft ceilings), you can carefully position the stats so as to recreate that dipole effect in full glory. That 10 milliseconds delay is crucial in recreating that depth in soundstage. Then by adjusting your listening seat, you can tweak the soundstage depth towards an intimate setting or large setting. In an intimate setting, you'd probably be about 8 to 10ft away from the panels, with a good 5-6ft away from the front wall, and around 6-7ft apart with slight angle inwards. Then, depending on your amplifier needs, you really don't require 100s of watts to energise the room, plus you certainly don't want to over-energise the room either.

If you're in a very large setting, (room measuring over 30ft square with 10-12ft ceilings) it may be quite tricky to obtain that 10ms delay. In such cases what I've seen and experienced is, large system setups, not small. The stat panels (Statements Evo-II's) were about 10ft away from the front wall, about 12ft apart, and listening distance of around 15ft away. Similar setup done on the Infinity IRSV's. The soundstage was huge! Big bold and beautiful, obviously with the help of those typical Statement sub arrays designed in a tower system then having the Relentless monoblocks well capable of 3000w into 8 Ohms, 6000w into 4 Ohms and around 9000w into 2 Ohms. The full scale of the orchestra is right there in front of you! The band whatever they're playing is live and playing with all their heart & soul, and even on small jazz ensembles, the mighty Statements simply disappear! So these are very large setups in large settings...

So having large to very large rooms is really not an issue, as long as you've got the right setup. Obviously, that member who didn't have the gear nor the right panels for that very large room, would never find the right sound. How large exactly was this room? And was it properly setup, was it properly matched with the gear he had... there are far too many variables in play where every parameter of the room must be taken into consideration in order to set up panels optimally.

I must say, in this very large room where my mate has these beautiful Statements, apart from the Infinity IRSV's, he also has the Alsyvox ribbons and the Maggie 30.7's. Just recently he sold off the 30.7's to one of his sub-dealers to make way for the new Alsyvox Botichelli with out-board x-over. He's also taking first delivery of CJ's newest ART108A's that are tube monoblocks capable of 160w in Class A.

Hopefully, I'll be visiting once again in Feb, and each time I visit it's an awe-inspiring experience! So, no I don't think large rooms are an issue with "large ribbon panels or stats."

I have a feeling our forum member was trying to setup much smaller stats compared to any full range stats... in a large room? In which case they'll be lost. That makes sense.

Cheers, RJ

He made the post a year or more ago so I don't remember much. He sold the ML speakers I think and bought some high end speakers. They had some really cool looking horns on them. I dont recall which MLs he had. It was either the CLX or 15a.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh ok, if it was horns or horn loaded designs then these can propel far greater dynamics with just a few watts being highly sensitive, with very high efficiency ratings. Yes, perfect for much larger rooms.
However, if he did in fact have either CLX's or the Ren15A's, well these are well capable of serious levels of dynamics, in fact limitless dynamics so to speak but the gear really has to match up in terms of amplification. I don't think he had the proper room setup nor the gear, and that's why he changed over from these larger stats. Giving up on either CLX's or the Ren15A's is a serious move... you'd have to have a pretty good darn reason.

 

[ttocs]

Robert, is this the room you speak of?

Beautiful room, and horns! Too bad it didn't work out for using the Expressions.

 

[Robert D]

Robert, is this the room you speak of?

Yes!

 

[Robert D]

Those look like 15s, and both pairs are there. Maybe the owner kept both sets and used them together? I just remember him saying the Martin Logans weren't quite right, and I was surprised. He pointed out that there's too much space behind them.

 

[ttocs]

I pulled that image from his listing for selling the 13A's. He tried different amps, talked with ML, the dealer, etc. but alas, they just didn't agree with the room.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah!!!! I know this room and the person. This is Herehear, he's on WBF. No, this is not a very large room, rather these are the issues:
1. There's no back wall...!!! Obviously the dipole effect is null, no way would it work! These aren't CLX's nor Ren15A's, these are Impression 11A's, much smaller, nonetheless, without at least 3 reinforced sides of a wall, there's absolutely no point in any panel type speakers for that matter. Yes, he changed over to the Avant Garde Horns, these are the Duo's and they work perfectly since his room is circular shaped like a giant egg / oval.

2. There are no side walls nor back walls nor front walls, just a big oval, so pretty good for Horns with enclosed bass drivers and good for playing cricket!

3. The amplification is NAD, and although pretty good, not very ideal for ML stats to reach their full potential but still quite good though I would say. I wouldn't use NAD with ML, not in the same level...

Anyway, I'm very happy for this chap, he's a nice fella, down to earth, and sincerely tried everything possible to get the stats to work to no avail... The dealer should have known this, and after a while he was stuck trying to sell them off, no takers. The Impression 11A's are fantastic stats, very capable but their true dipoles and require proper room setup. This is why the room is so important! It is basically an intricate component itself, get the room wrong and your sound is all over the countryside.

RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

That back wall is so far back, even if there's a proper wall... you'd have to take a taxi to reach the other side!
Just the wrong setup, wrong speakers and out of whack dimensions. Only Large horns and dynamic driver types will excel in a room like this. I should have a chat to his dealer, and check on what he's smoking... must be having a few shrooms for breakie!

 

[Robert D]

One thing I don't understand. Why does everyone put sound traps on the wall behind and sometimes next to the panels, if having the dipole effect is such a good thing? That would seem to cancel much of it out.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, these are dependent on room settings and parameters that are reproduced with unwanted energy. Sometimes when excessive bass energy is developed from multiple subs this can be an issue. Also high reverb levels and the echo effect... all contribute to this sort of acoustic treatment. At the end of the day, the idea or key to good sound vs great sound is a matter of trial and error. Getting the most from your room setup and finding that optimal performance. Doing things in moderation and not getting too carried away with gizmos will yield better results. At least I hope so!

Cheers mate, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

There was another room set up we did that I thought I'd share, quite similar to that large one above that's oval shaped.

So this particular customer liked both the Maggie's and AG horns. He purchased the last pair of MG3 5's from us and wanted our help to set them up. When we arrived at his place, basically it was an upstairs apartment, with car garage on ground floor. Thus, the single floor apartment had everything in it. Lounge, dinning, TV area, and balcony with kitchen. Towards the far right, one long corridor with 5 bedrooms. It was quite a large living space.

As we entered through the middle of this oval shaped area, on the far right were large windows arranged in an arc format, so basically the entire wall was arced housing 6 large windows with blinds. From that area to the nearest lounge, was nearly 20ft! The dinning area and other TV area were way further away, probably another 10ft away, ending up with a kitchen and balcony area that opens up with 6 more large French windows in an arc shape. So that basically the other half of the egg. That entire oval space was at least 50ft across and probably 30ft wide, if memory serves correct.

So now what... we were pondering the best place for the Maggie's and it turned out that there wasn't! The Mrs. basically calls the shots... so she didn't want these large looking "doors" place anywhere near the lounge, said its ok if we played near that windows area... (she had no clue about sound nor didn't care for it). So we set up in this area, and after trying various placements, angles and tweaking, it was just plain awful! The amplification wasn't too bad, an Adcom GFA 800 series top of the line, with an Adcom matching preamp, capable of pumping out in excess of 350w on 8 Ohms and doubling to 800w on 4 Ohms, ideal for Maggie's but that damn room, it just didn't float.

After about half the day, we packed it all up and loaded the MG3.5"s back in the truck. He was pretty disappointed but she was happy...!
The Maggie's were later sold off to another customer who actually had a normal room with four sides to it! The Maggie's worked great, driven with a combination of Threshold power amp and a Forte preamp, both designed by Nelson Pass.

That previous customer then ordered a pair of AG Duo's, these were the older series made in 99/2000, way before Dsp or anything. So we set up the Duo's for him in that same arced area, and this time it worked! Sounded quite good, the horns opened up nicely, the dual bass drivers had plenty of room to launch there LF power, plus this time his Mrs was quite pleased. So we quickly grabbed our stuff and got the heck out of there!

Moral of the story, goes to show how the room can either make or break any system worth it's value. Doesn't have to be very fancy with lofty gear, unless your room is sorted out, there's absolutely no point pondering... so attend to that first!

Thought I'd just share this across, incase any of you have odd oval shaped rooms... very difficult for dipoles!

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

 

[GWS2000]

One thing I don't understand. Why does everyone put sound traps on the wall behind and sometimes next to the panels, if having the dipole effect is such a good thing? That would seem to cancel much of it out.

Greetings. I have the Classic 9's in my large room, the bass module it 10" from the wall according to what ML suggests (going by the woofer size - and then some). This puts the panel about 3' into the room. No sound absorption what ever behind them or to the nearest side walls. Toe in is also the ML recommendation.

I wrote down all measurements and taped the floor, as I wanted to experiment further with a benchmark recording. No matter what I did, the Martin Logan formula was the nicest result in depth, stereo image and width in sweet spot back at the listening post 20' back ! That setting remains today and can be seen in my new showcased photos.

 

[Ronin]

I'm getting great sound but one always wonders- could I tweak it better?. I have a terrible room I think. It is essentially a "L" with the system on the long wall. So my speakers are 6ft apart and 3ft from the wall with a toe in very slight of maybe 5 degrees. I sit about 8 ft back. The system wall is about 30ft. The left speaker has about 15 ft open to it's right (outside) The right speaker about 10ft to it's left/outside wall but then 20 ft or so open in front of it albeit on its left quarter.

I got a treatment on the wall directly behind my sitting position and that's about it.

Great post though. Reminds me that in this hobby, you are NEVER done (lol)

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I think that's a pretty good arrangement there Ronin, given ypur room dimensions. Not many of us are able to own the best rooms in the world for Acoustics... this is more of a professional aspect. For example, large cinemas, concert halls, dedicated stages for live shows, plays, concerts, recording studios etc., this is where those golden rules in the best Acoustics must be applied.

For those who can afford it and have built dedicated rooms, that's excellent, good on you! I've always believed that the room does play a huge role in the audio system's overall performance, without a doubt! Having certain aspects of room dimensions that are tricky to deal with is always a learning curve and we can only make do with what we've got. Whatever the room dimensions are and its layout, if you can create a dedicated listening space within those parameters and it works to 90% or above, that's all that matters.

Regardless of what anyone says, there will always be someone to critisize your room. They call it all sorts of names, mediocre, entry level design, kitchen based, whatever! At the end of the day, you're the main person listening. Perhaps either with one or two other people in the household as casual listeners, being our partners, uncles or those visiting...

At the end of the day, it's usually and always just us! So for that one person who can create a dedicated listening area within a given space is all that matters. Only you can create this space, simply because you're the only one living in it! I've called upon the experts to set up my listening area within an open plan space and it worked wonders. However, after they left I've made small changes, and tweaks to fine tune, simply because I'm the one living in it! So it's not to please others... rather to derive the most significant attributes from the original recording and be able to playback those qualities with utmost Fidelity. That should be the goal.

I'm done and dusted with room treatments and those silly gizmos. I just want to pop in a CD or place an LP and just listen to music! Quite a lot of people these days are so damn paranoid with their gear, such that they lose focus entirely on the music, rather they listen to the system... totally no clue.

I used to know this one chap, who had thought he had set up the perfect room, thought he owned the best system in world (because JV of TAS owned the same speakers...) thought he had the best gear in world... and would hardly ever listen to music properly. Quite often, wanted to come round and listen to my CLX's. Again focusing on the gear, not the music. He owned the Maggie's 30.7's and always wanted to compare, claiming that his was the best and no one else's (insecurity issues...) As a result, I got really tired of this chap and closed the gate! For good, simply because I'm more focused on the music and what's on the recording. Not interested in comparing gear / systems, what's the point?

Like I said, we can never make it perfect, and this is not a recording studio. This is our own living room, so we must make the most of what we have and simply enjoy it! Tweaking and adjusting to that 90% range is more than adequate to enjoy the music. It can never be 100%, no such things exists.

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ

 

[JonFo]

I don't have a whole lot of time this weekend to get deeper into this topic, but I will quickly mention that with dipole speakers in a reflective room, one is using physical location and orientation to essentially set a fixed version of the stereo-widening mixing effect detailed in this article: Classic Stereo-widening

It can be quite pleasant as long as it is within certain limits of delay and other parameters. It works best for 'dry' recordings. It can be amazing on solo piano, for instance.
For deeply layered music, such as the Progressive Rock I'm into, it muddles the mix way too much for my taste, as I'd like to hear the mix the artists and producers created.

 

[Robert D]

Greetings. I have the Classic 9's in my large room, the bass module it 10" from the wall according to what ML suggests (going by the woofer size - and then some). This puts the panel about 3' into the room. No sound absorption what ever behind them or to the nearest side walls. Toe in is also the ML recommendation.

I wrote down all measurements and taped the floor, as I wanted to experiment further with a benchmark recording. No matter what I did, the Martin Logan formula was the nicest result in depth, stereo image and width in sweet spot back at the listening post 20' back ! That setting remains today and can be seen in my new showcased photos.

Yeah, I have my Prodigy speakers placed the same way and no treatments. I should probably try some but have been putting it off because I will have to learn more stuff and spend a lot of time on it probably. Im getting lazy Im afraid.

 

[DDzCLX]

Ah yes, I can see this happening, no doubt.

The idea is to get that true 3D imaging reproduced perfectly between the panels, so that full soundstage affect takes place. It has a sort of enveloping affect, where the soundstage wraps around you, and fully immerses you in the presentation. Very similar to a camera lense, you can focus the right scale by careful placement and optimal positioning, and must also include the listening position.

Obviously if the room is far too big then average to small panel type speakers can get lost, will have weak bass and sound diffused.

For very large rooms, either the Neoliths, Statements or CLX's with subs will be perfect, and I've listened extensively to large setups of this nature. Amplfiers used ranged from, Dan D's Relentless and Momentum monoblocks, CH Precision, Solution, and of course CJ's ART300's, which are my reference systems all driving CLX's & Neoliths in very large rooms. Plenty of space and adequate musical waves to fill the room, thanks to serious levels of amplification.

What I learnt over the years, the trick here is that true dipole effect. Since panels are a box-less design, the room becomes the box! So, if you have an average good size room (20ft by 20ft square with 10ft ceilings), you can carefully position the stats so as to recreate that dipole effect in full glory. That 10 milliseconds delay is crucial in recreating that depth in soundstage. Then by adjusting your listening seat, you can tweak the soundstage depth towards an intimate setting or large setting. In an intimate setting, you'd probably be about 8 to 10ft away from the panels, with a good 5-6ft away from the front wall, and around 6-7ft apart with slight angle inwards. Then, depending on your amplifier needs, you really don't require 100s of watts to energise the room, plus you certainly don't want to over-energise the room either.

If you're in a very large setting, (room measuring over 30ft square with 10-12ft ceilings) it may be quite tricky to obtain that 10ms delay. In such cases what I've seen and experienced is, large system setups, not small. The stat panels (Statements Evo-II's) were about 10ft away from the front wall, about 12ft apart, and listening distance of around 15ft away. Similar setup done on the Infinity IRSV's. The soundstage was huge! Big bold and beautiful, obviously with the help of those typical Statement sub arrays designed in a tower system then having the Relentless monoblocks well capable of 3000w into 8 Ohms, 6000w into 4 Ohms and around 9000w into 2 Ohms. The full scale of the orchestra is right there in front of you! The band whatever they're playing is live and playing with all their heart & soul, and even on small jazz ensembles, the mighty Statements simply disappear! So these are very large setups in large settings...

So having large to very large rooms is really not an issue, as long as you've got the right setup. Obviously, that member who didn't have the gear nor the right panels for that very large room, would never find the right sound. How large exactly was this room? And was it properly setup, was it properly matched with the gear he had... there are far too many variables in play where every parameter of the room must be taken into consideration in order to set up panels optimally.

I must say, in this very large room where my mate has these beautiful Statements, apart from the Infinity IRSV's, he also has the Alsyvox ribbons and the Maggie 30.7's. Just recently he sold off the 30.7's to one of his sub-dealers to make way for the new Alsyvox Botichelli with out-board x-over. He's also taking first delivery of CJ's newest ART108A's that are tube monoblocks capable of 160w in Class A.

Hopefully, I'll be visiting once again in Feb, and each time I visit it's an awe-inspiring experience! So, no I don't think large rooms are an issue with "large ribbon panels or stats."

I have a feeling our forum member was trying to setup much smaller stats compared to any full range stats... in a large room? In which case they'll be lost. That makes sense.

Cheers, RJ

This pretty much describes my set up, 6 feet from the front wall at the centre of the panel

" In an intimate setting, you'd probably be about 8 to 10ft away from the panels, with a good 5-6ft away from the front wall, and around 6-7ft apart with slight angle inwards."

The speakers haven't moved for years, once in a while I move my listening chair forwards or back a few inches but that's about it, Descent I subs behind the CLX towards the corners.