roberto
Well-known member
Hola. The CLX is a special design. It has a double bass panel and it is crossover at 360Hz. Take a look of the CLX design: http://www.martinlogan.com/clxart/index.php
Happy listening!
Happy listening!
ESL 15A, 13A, 11A Reviews?
- Thread starter rpokuls
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I am unable to recall the information that would provide the substance for answer to your question.
My own understanding and I may be wrong, is that the larger the panel size the greater amount of air panel can move to produce bass waves. Larger panels in hybrids have lower crossover points. Smaller panels such as the one in Electromotion would necessitate a higher crossover point. The smaller panel does not have the ability to move enough air in the room to adequately produce bass below 500 Hz. A engineering maxim is " Form follows function". An example of this maxim is the electrostatic panel.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
That seemed to be the case until they released the new Masterpiece series, where the top three models all crossover at 300 Hz, despite having progressively larger stat panels. The Summit/X (11" panel) crossed over at 270.
I suspect another reason was to simplify the manufacturing process/cost where the new models (at least the top three) share a common crossover plus the ARC capability.
Will be interesting to see what pro reviewers say about that (if/when S'phile or Absolute Sound reviews one).
Having CLX with dual depth combo to listen to at will. It sure is easy on the ears.. Albeit I NEVER did like their looks.. It always appears a Hodge podge of parts .. I still would not spend $18 k on them or for that matter $10 k as a SUB is needed.. Id look to the newer lines with DSP ..
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Panel size determines how low the crossover may be set. I may be wrong but given a panel size the lowest crossover point that is possible is fixed. A higher crossover point is always possible since it is not affected by panel size.
A successively lower crossover point was possible in the latest panels from ML going from lower model towards higher model. For whatever reason best known with precision by ML they opted for a higher uniform for all three models crossover point.
Another reason why the recent series panels have higher crossover points may be, my educated guess, Martin Logan desires and therefore designs the extra special twin force cancelling powered acoustic suspension woofers to play a larger role in reproducing high fidelity bass. Larger role means greater lower frequency bandwidth covered by woofers. Accomplished by increasing the crossover point.
May be the case too that ML wishes to simply the manufacturing process. I know for I once removed the cover of my Sony CDP X505ES and was shocked to see what seemed to me some component parts were missing. I later discovered parts were not missing but rather the more complex higher model X707ES had these spaces filled in by electronic components.
The above is my own understanding and may not be accurate or correct.
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amey01
Well-known member
Problem is, you need subs then.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
ML has released a new YouTube video about the Masterpiece series. Interesting to note they worked with Kem Studio (a local Kansas industrial design firm) for the Masterpiece series. The Expression design has really grown on me since I've acquired them! Surprisingly high WAF too! Only changes I would have made are 1) front woofer grill would have looked better if it was curved and aligned with the stat panel, and 2) ML should have kept the Summit X leg design for adjustable rake angle. Fortunately, I kept my set of Summit X legs, and they're compatible with the new models.
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Anjin
Member
Cool video! I'm always craving more content on the Masterpiece series. I recently moved from Montis to the Renaissance ESL 15A.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Whoosh! Look who's reviewing the Renaissance in their Jan issue!
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So - did you compare the Renaissance to anything else outside of ML? Can you talk about that - and possibly a compare on the montis? How does that big cabinet work with the bass? Is it more like a descent type of bass ... or is it more like the Montis - punchy bass? I would think the larger cabinet would make things a little bit better..... I have yet to hear this speaker so I am interested in your impressions - and what you are running it off of etc... thanks Tim.
Anjin
Member
Here is a link to some of the gear I've had recently outside of ML http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/view_userimages.php?user_id=16153
When I attended CES this year I went with a set budget and the mindset of selecting a long term speaker. After a few days I felt overall that the Renaissance was the best bang for the buck and it was below the set budget. Having owned and loved the Montis it made me a little more comfortable going with Martin Logan (I've had ML over the years since the Aerius).
The bass is simply incredible with the ESL 15A's. You expect a fire breathing dragon (which it can be if it wants) but the bass disappears into the sound coming out of the panel. The integration is top notch, it's only at very high volumes you really pick it out. It's not comparable to the Descent or the Montis (probably) thanks to the Powered Force Forward tech. After running ARC they integrated very well in to my smaller room. Without ARC I doubt I could have them in my listening room.
What they do better than any Martin Logan hybrid I've heard with the exception of the Neolith is imaging and bass. I can't quite put my finger on why the imaging is better but it's got a wider scale and instruments/vocals are hung in space perfectly with great separation and layers. Sometimes vocals are larger than life but I'm not complaining. For the record I've logged many hours with the Odyssey so it's not my first time experiencing a large hybrid.
One of the best pairings so far has been a Wells Audio Majestic integrated, it's so silky smooth and the price is right. I was using a 14B Cubed but I've since gone full time with a Devialet D-Premier. The transparency I'm getting with the pairing is unbelievable at times. They really benefit from the cleanest amplification.
The Renaissance is probably not everyone's cup tea but I have yet to meet someone that hasn't had a a look of disbelief when they hear a good recording on them. Much like the Montis I feel the Masterpiece series is going to turn people that once disliked hybrids.
Let's hope Stereophile is gentle!
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Awesome. Thanks. Yes I have the odysseys.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Got my Jan S'phile yesterday! Renaissance reviewed by Jon Iverson (who admits he's a longtime ML/electrostatic fan, who currently owns the Prodigy with dual BF 212 subs). Overall, a very favorable review, but he apparently got the review pair shortly after their introduction, so no mention of the Expression or Impression models.
Iverson summed up the sound as having similar tonality as his Prodigy's, but more resolving midrange detail, and, as expected, superb bass, especially after running ARC. Interestingly, he invited his local audiophile club members over for a listen, and includes a lot of their comments in the review. Only (slight) negative, if any, was the perception by some of them (also JA) that the Renaissance was a bit on the bright side, with the suggestion that tubed gear might help. However, Iverson used only digital sources and all SS gear (Marantz AV7005 and Classe CAM 350 monoblocks). My Expressions (with C-J CT5 tubed preamp and SS amp) are not overly bright at all.
Unfortunately, Iverson didn't compare the Renaissance to other recent ML models (Montis, Summit/X, CLX, Neolith), nor delve deeper into the sophisticated DSP capabilities and 300 Hz crossover choice. However, the excellent integration of woofers to panel and capability of ARC were clearly evident in JA's measurements.
JA conducted his measurements in Iverson's home using Fuzzmeasure (vs. the more sophisticated MLSSA gear in his NY lab). The waterfall plots were fairly wonky, but he sums up by stating
Wow indeed!
Will be interesting to hear others' take on the review. If you don't get the print mag, the review should be online within a month or two.
Iverson summed up the sound as having similar tonality as his Prodigy's, but more resolving midrange detail, and, as expected, superb bass, especially after running ARC. Interestingly, he invited his local audiophile club members over for a listen, and includes a lot of their comments in the review. Only (slight) negative, if any, was the perception by some of them (also JA) that the Renaissance was a bit on the bright side, with the suggestion that tubed gear might help. However, Iverson used only digital sources and all SS gear (Marantz AV7005 and Classe CAM 350 monoblocks). My Expressions (with C-J CT5 tubed preamp and SS amp) are not overly bright at all.
Unfortunately, Iverson didn't compare the Renaissance to other recent ML models (Montis, Summit/X, CLX, Neolith), nor delve deeper into the sophisticated DSP capabilities and 300 Hz crossover choice. However, the excellent integration of woofers to panel and capability of ARC were clearly evident in JA's measurements.
JA conducted his measurements in Iverson's home using Fuzzmeasure (vs. the more sophisticated MLSSA gear in his NY lab). The waterfall plots were fairly wonky, but he sums up by stating
Wow indeed!
Will be interesting to hear others' take on the review. If you don't get the print mag, the review should be online within a month or two.
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sleepysurf
Well-known member
For those across the pond, the Jan issue of HiFi News also has a review of the Renaissance! http://www.hifinews.co.uk/
If any of you Brits subscribe, please let us know what they said!
If any of you Brits subscribe, please let us know what they said!
mac_tweety
Well-known member
Dear all,
in German magazines Stereoplay and Audio reviews of ML Expression ESL 13A and Renaissance ESL 15A were published.
The overall rating was very positive. The classification by scores are very high (especially Renaissance).
In Stereoplay the Expression ESL 13A reaches 66 points (for comparison: Summit X - 64; CLX - 63; Montis - 62)
In Audio the Renaissance ESL 15A reaches 108 points (for comparison: Summit X - 103; CLX - 103; Montis - 102)
Here are some links to the reviews (published by an German dealer; unfortunately only in German but with some nice pictures).
http://ftp.visionsandmore.eu/martin_logan_esl15a.pdf#page=72&view=FitView
http://ftp.visionsandmore.eu/martin_logan_esl13a.pdf#page=72&<br />view=FitView
Regards
Udo
in German magazines Stereoplay and Audio reviews of ML Expression ESL 13A and Renaissance ESL 15A were published.
The overall rating was very positive. The classification by scores are very high (especially Renaissance).
In Stereoplay the Expression ESL 13A reaches 66 points (for comparison: Summit X - 64; CLX - 63; Montis - 62)
In Audio the Renaissance ESL 15A reaches 108 points (for comparison: Summit X - 103; CLX - 103; Montis - 102)
Here are some links to the reviews (published by an German dealer; unfortunately only in German but with some nice pictures).
http://ftp.visionsandmore.eu/martin_logan_esl15a.pdf#page=72&view=FitView
http://ftp.visionsandmore.eu/martin_logan_esl13a.pdf#page=72&<br />view=FitView
Regards
Udo
khenegar
Well-known member
After reading the review on the new 15a in comparison to the prodigy, Since there is no earth shattering differences I think I would op to find myself a clean pair or prodigys and invest in some new panels. And save myself some big cash and not have to worry about the amps and so forth going bad. The CLX Is the way to go full range electrostatic this has to be the most purist way to do it. No need for room correction with those baby's! Now this is if u can put them in your room! We're the old days of dialing in your system and a good clean sounding 2 channel system With out all the help of room correction! Thanks
Anjin
Member
I found them a little bright out of the box with a SS pre and Bryston amp, that was my reasoning behind going with a BAT tube pre. After a few months there was no hint of brightness. The way a Wells Audio amp smooths them out is very impressive, almost a perfect pairing.
What a shift from little material out there to a flood of reviews. It's not surprising to see them rate close to megabuck Gauder Akustik Berlina RC 9's in the German magazine. I had similar impressions hearing pricier speakers at CES this year. In my fairly experienced opinion the Masterpiece series represents a great value.
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