I have Aeon i fronts. Supplemented by a Grotto currently. For stereo listening, my preamp routes mid to low to the Grotto as well, since I find the Aeon's are lacking in the mid to lower ranges a bit. I'd seriously like to do something about mid-low freq.. A bit of a dilemma: do I trade-in the grotto for a Depth - or buy another grotto and connect in series? Different results I guess - with the lone Depth I just get much tighter and powerful response all around. With 2 grottos I get balance.. Any opinions?
dual subs
- Thread starter Neo
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
lugano
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,054
- Reaction score
- 0
Hi Neo,
IMHO you should NOT be able to tell where the bass is coming from. If you are, then too much mid-bass gets played by the subs. In my setup, the ML's are in front of me and the sub is on my right, but I just feel bass, without being able to tell that it comes from my right. Try to cut off the sub(s) at different frequency settings and see if you are satisfied. Of course, another important factor is the room size....
IMHO you should NOT be able to tell where the bass is coming from. If you are, then too much mid-bass gets played by the subs. In my setup, the ML's are in front of me and the sub is on my right, but I just feel bass, without being able to tell that it comes from my right. Try to cut off the sub(s) at different frequency settings and see if you are satisfied. Of course, another important factor is the room size....
You should DEFINITELY be able to tell where the bass is coming from. Bass not being directional is a myth. Even crossed over as low as 60hz, what happens is that you don't hear discrete sound coming from one direction, but you feel the power and weight coming from a general direction. It's not directional like a normal speaker is, where you can pinpoint the sound, but is directional in that you will definitely feel the energy and power emminating from a general direction.
I'm a FIRM believer in stereo subs. They can be more tricky to setup, and easy to screw up, but the overall affect is very nice. I actually run one sub at the right front of my room, and one at the left rear (not really stereo, as they both play from the same LFE channel). This made for a significant improvement in presence. Now the bass comes from all around and just shakes the room, but does so evenly. With only one sub it always felt like the bass was stronger in the direction of the sub. It wasn't something you could localize like a regular speaker, but it just always felt like that side of the room was "loaded".
If you are running anything over 100hz to your sub then it will be noticeably directional. In this case you'll want the subs placed appropriately close to their respective speakers. I wouldn't recommend crossing the subs over as high as you have it, but it sounds like that setup works for you. My front/rear setup probably wouldn't work for you, as I cross mine over around 60hz or so.
I'm a FIRM believer in stereo subs. They can be more tricky to setup, and easy to screw up, but the overall affect is very nice. I actually run one sub at the right front of my room, and one at the left rear (not really stereo, as they both play from the same LFE channel). This made for a significant improvement in presence. Now the bass comes from all around and just shakes the room, but does so evenly. With only one sub it always felt like the bass was stronger in the direction of the sub. It wasn't something you could localize like a regular speaker, but it just always felt like that side of the room was "loaded".
If you are running anything over 100hz to your sub then it will be noticeably directional. In this case you'll want the subs placed appropriately close to their respective speakers. I wouldn't recommend crossing the subs over as high as you have it, but it sounds like that setup works for you. My front/rear setup probably wouldn't work for you, as I cross mine over around 60hz or so.
lugano
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,054
- Reaction score
- 0
Caerus
Well-known member
Thanks Lugano for the article. I have been learning with my new Depth i and Vantages.
I am intrigued with the prospects of the new CLX and maybe two Depth i's.
Brad
I am intrigued with the prospects of the new CLX and maybe two Depth i's.
Brad
Caerus
Well-known member
Neo,
I would go for the new Depth i. I just went through the thought process of obtaining a subwoofer to complement my Vantages and add to the HT effect. The Depth i is certainly much more musical than the Grotto and has faster response. Providing your room is not huge one Depth i should handle your needs. I like the new Depth i simultaneous connection of LFE for HT and speaker line (or pre outs) inputs for two channel. I have mine connected both ways and loving it. You can obtain balance with one Depth i if setup correctly.
Brad
I would go for the new Depth i. I just went through the thought process of obtaining a subwoofer to complement my Vantages and add to the HT effect. The Depth i is certainly much more musical than the Grotto and has faster response. Providing your room is not huge one Depth i should handle your needs. I like the new Depth i simultaneous connection of LFE for HT and speaker line (or pre outs) inputs for two channel. I have mine connected both ways and loving it. You can obtain balance with one Depth i if setup correctly.
Brad
One important detail we're forgetting here is that NEO indicates he's crossing his sub over pretty high. From the way he's written it, it sounds like he's crossing over around 120hz or higher. This is possibly going to be difficult to blend with a single sub. I can't comment on the quality of the Grotto vs the Depth, but if there is a significant improvement in sound quality, then it might be worth his while to work his system around the single sub, but he will probably have to cross it over lower, not sure if this would suit what he's asking for or not.
NEO, you might want to experiment with location to get a feel for whether this is going to be an issue for you or not. Get a long RCA and try positioning your current sub in dramatically different locations, like far right, then far left, then behind you, and see if you can hear a difference. This will let you know if you have a directional issue. Always better to play with what you have before you buy anything new.
That article really sounds like too much paper, not enough real-world. Kinda like when guys in the cycling community used to go on and on about how a carbon fiber frame couldn't possibly ride smoother than a steel frame, and how they could prove it on paper. But one ride on the bike would prove otherwise. The flaw in this type of technical article is that it's what he hasn't considered that affects the outcome.
He may be touching on the reasons why it "seems" directional, like standing waves. But it doesn't explain why the subwoofer in my car, which is crossed over below 80hz, still definitely sounds like the bass is coming from behind me.
The problem may be in semantics, where we aren't actually talking about what we're hearing, it could be a matter of what we are feeling. Low bass is much more about feel than higher frequencies. And, it's definitely not a directional like a normal speaker is. He also points out that it's not directional, but that multiple subs spaced around the room is ideal??? I'm willing to accept that it may not be "true" directionality, perhaps it's standing waves, room dependent, etc... but in the end it's factors that he isn't considering that are impacting what is heard. After all, we can "prove" on paper that tubes are crappy, yet somehow they sound very musical.
It's possible that having two subs in my setup is canceling a standing wave, but that's real-world. We don't all have ideal rooms, and we have to adapt to the environment we're in. Plus, it may also be a factor of a 80hz crossover isn't actually cutting off everything above 80hz, it's just producing less and less of it.
NEO, you might want to experiment with location to get a feel for whether this is going to be an issue for you or not. Get a long RCA and try positioning your current sub in dramatically different locations, like far right, then far left, then behind you, and see if you can hear a difference. This will let you know if you have a directional issue. Always better to play with what you have before you buy anything new.
That article really sounds like too much paper, not enough real-world. Kinda like when guys in the cycling community used to go on and on about how a carbon fiber frame couldn't possibly ride smoother than a steel frame, and how they could prove it on paper. But one ride on the bike would prove otherwise. The flaw in this type of technical article is that it's what he hasn't considered that affects the outcome.
He may be touching on the reasons why it "seems" directional, like standing waves. But it doesn't explain why the subwoofer in my car, which is crossed over below 80hz, still definitely sounds like the bass is coming from behind me.
The problem may be in semantics, where we aren't actually talking about what we're hearing, it could be a matter of what we are feeling. Low bass is much more about feel than higher frequencies. And, it's definitely not a directional like a normal speaker is. He also points out that it's not directional, but that multiple subs spaced around the room is ideal??? I'm willing to accept that it may not be "true" directionality, perhaps it's standing waves, room dependent, etc... but in the end it's factors that he isn't considering that are impacting what is heard. After all, we can "prove" on paper that tubes are crappy, yet somehow they sound very musical.
It's possible that having two subs in my setup is canceling a standing wave, but that's real-world. We don't all have ideal rooms, and we have to adapt to the environment we're in. Plus, it may also be a factor of a 80hz crossover isn't actually cutting off everything above 80hz, it's just producing less and less of it.
stesom
Well-known member
Having switched to two subs, I would not consider going back to one. I get a much more solid fleshed in dimensional image with stereo subs as opposed to a single sub........Steve
fyi, I went with dual (or as I was afraid of, duelling?) subs. Grottos were on closeout for $800 at the local dealer, since the new line of Grottos are due soon. These really worked together - the bass remained tight, full, rich (use your favorite adjectives here 
Seriously, I'm quite happy to have gone with 2 subs. 2 Depth i's would be even better, um, but maybe some other day..
Seriously, I'm quite happy to have gone with 2 subs. 2 Depth i's would be even better, um, but maybe some other day..
Grotto Performance
I just purchased a Grotto and it sounds fantastic right out of the box. It's so controlled, and silky smooth. I just watched the scene in Jurasic Park III where the T-Rex squares off with it's rival dinosaur. It was so convincing my hair stood on end. If the Grotto would have played any louder or lower I swear it would have bored a hole 5 ft deep in my living room. Absolutely amazing. Can't believe the quality of the grotto's base. And at least in my medium sized room I could not imagine ever needing 2. And this is coming from someone who craves base.
I am now a believer, that Servo subs are the only way to go. I recognize that everyone's set up is different, but I highly recomend this sub, even for those who are convinced they needed a 12" or 15" sub.
I just purchased a Grotto and it sounds fantastic right out of the box. It's so controlled, and silky smooth. I just watched the scene in Jurasic Park III where the T-Rex squares off with it's rival dinosaur. It was so convincing my hair stood on end. If the Grotto would have played any louder or lower I swear it would have bored a hole 5 ft deep in my living room. Absolutely amazing. Can't believe the quality of the grotto's base. And at least in my medium sized room I could not imagine ever needing 2. And this is coming from someone who craves base.
I am now a believer, that Servo subs are the only way to go. I recognize that everyone's set up is different, but I highly recomend this sub, even for those who are convinced they needed a 12" or 15" sub.
I agree with the dual/stereo sub route..........I've been running dual Grotto's with my Vista's for the past eleven months, I'm getting ready to trade up to the ML Vantages next month, I suspect that the Grotto's will continue to be a great match.
