Does one need a subwoofer for quality bass?

[SundayNiagara]

Depends on the speakers. I want bass to 20 hz ! That being said I would take tight real bass to 40 hz rather than loose flabby bass at 20 !

What kind of music do you listen to?

 

[MOON]

To answer your question , I recently added an ML depth sub to my Odyssey's for 2 channel . It is definately a welcome addition. It does add more weight to the music and makes it fuller , more eveloping .

I didn't want crazy bass , you know the boomy type. I have the sub set with the 25 hz straight up and about 5 1/2 on the volume . This gives me clean bass and extends where the Odyessey's leave off.I wouldn't go without it now. I tried it all over the room and it was best right between the Odyssey's. I would say go for the sub and don't look back if your present speakers can't get down to 20 hz.

I was quite surprised to find that one of my favourite songs off of the Monsters Ball soundtrack had a deep bass note playing continuously through the song which was previously unheard without the sub.It was subtle , but still there in the entire song. Do you know what you are missing?

Cheers

 

[DTB300]

INot only do I get more uuummmppphhh on the bottom, I also get a better sense of hall ambiance.

MiTT - an excellent point about adding a sub to a setup. Most look for more of the chest or feeling, but most do not realize the improvement in ambiance and affects on other parts of the music.

 

[David Matz]

What speakers are you using?

Vantage driven by CJ 350, Bat 51SE Preamp, Ayre C5Xe Source.

 

[JonFo]

I find that even if the mains have good bass performance, no reasonable sized speaker, sitting three feet out in the room is ever going to have outstanding low-frequency performance at <40Hz.

So to truly get the full range of audio (and even some infrasonics if your system is capable enough), a sub (or two, or four) is a requirement IMHO.

The challenge is: The bass must be both clean (low distortion, even at high SPL) and well integrated (phase, delay, crossover slopes appropriate, etc.).

Then, the room should be treated, and the Sub EQ’s to compensate for remaining room induced anomalies.

The Sub must also be sized correctly, with a sub that can move enough air, so for a 3K cubic foot room, roughly 15 liters or better of air displacement (note: A Depth has about 9 liters).

My InfiniteBaffle sub (which displaces 16 liters), and is tuned and integrated with a $5K pro-audio speaker processor and provides a solid foundation with a -3 db point of 12Hz. It’s actually +4db at 22Hz (measurements taken at listening position).

That is enough to actually pressurize the room when the door is closed. It’s fun to watch peoples reaction when the air pressure changes during demos. I even had my ears pop once
The Blue Man group - Audio (on DVD-A) is a great ultra LF demo.

But, it must be low-distortion, even at 90+ dB SPL, the subs should be below 1% THD.
As a data point, the IB Sub + the entire custom center channel setup is only 0.56% THD at 86dB SPL.

I use the sub at all times, as its part of the overall speaker system (integrated through the speaker processor).

 

[C.A.P]

What kind of music do you listen to?

Everything to anything ! From Bach to Rock !

 

[Thai]

The question is...how important is bass below 40Hz on a music CD?? For movies, i am all for subwoofer...but for music 2-channel CD, how much bass is there encoded in the CD below 40Hz??

 

[David Matz]

The question is...how important is bass below 40Hz on a music CD?? For movies, i am all for subwoofer...but for music 2-channel CD, how much bass is there encoded in the CD below 40Hz??

Also,

Does the subwoofer change or over-ride the bass that the speaker or upstream equipment is missing or augment the missing frequencies?

 

[SundayNiagara]

Vantage driven by CJ 350, Bat 51SE Preamp, Ayre C5Xe Source.

I don't see pipe organ music in your list and don't think you need a sub/s.

 

[SundayNiagara]

Everything to anything ! From Bach to Rock !

I would ask for in-home auditions of subs until I found the right blend. Which in your case, will be very difficult to do, because of the speed of the 'stats.

PS: Run the 'stats full range, w/no crossover.

 

[JonFo]

The question is...how important is bass below 40Hz on a music CD?? For movies, i am all for subwoofer...but for music 2-channel CD, how much bass is there encoded in the CD below 40Hz??

It depends on the recording, but even chamber music will have some level, but mostly it's the sound of the room the recording was made in.
That can impart a really cool, almost subliminal sense of the 'space'.

however, that can also be a negative, there are a few recordings made in the late 80's early 90's (direct to digital) that have infrasonic caused by HVAC, traffic outside the venue, etc. that's not quite so 'musical', but it is accurate

For quite a bit of pop music, there is substantial <40Hz on many recordings. it might not dominate, but its there.

I've been watching the RTA on my new Driverack 4800, and the bands at 40Hz and below do show signal on pretty much most recordings I've played so far.

 

[JonFo]

I would ask for in-home auditions of subs until I found the right blend. Which in your case, will be very difficult to do, because of the speed of the 'stats.

PS: Run the 'stats full range, w/no crossover.

Well, the CLS's have a built-in 'filter' around 40hz or so.

All ESL's need to not try and reproduce signals close to their resonant frequencies. the bigger the panel, the lower the resonant frequency, but they all have it.

Steep 4th order or greater Crossover can achieve the goal of having the panel play as low as possible while keeping as much of the signal away from the resonant frequency.
This also keeps the sub from trying to play in ranges it's not really good at either.

 

[JohnA]

The question is...how important is bass below 40Hz on a music CD?? For movies, i am all for subwoofer...but for music 2-channel CD, how much bass is there encoded in the CD below 40Hz??

Surprisingly much, on some good recordings
Some old recordings have nothing down there - then a good remaster job comes along (rare but possible!) and there is so much more clarity everywhere.

Quick example, Deep Purple's 'Made in Japan' (first rock LP I ever heard, so has sentimental value for me)
Old CD - nothing for the big sub, even at high volumes. Probably they used tapes mastered for vinyl.
New remaster (double): it has a distincive bass line, the big sub lights up often enough.

Also note:
Even if it is not material below 40Hz, anything below 100Hz will need augmenting at high volumes or energy bursts.
Even a steep filter of 12db/octave will allow 95db from the low sub when the main speakers play 100Hz at 107db (a beat or such). That's quite a bit of energy that wouldn't otherwise be reproduced.

 

[rhom]

I'm just reading this thread and it is an interesting one. Thought that I would add my two cents.

My Vantages are set up in a room about 17' deep (my head is 13' from the front of the stats) and 23' wide. I'm running a vintage Krell KSA-250 with a KSP-7B/Ayre CX-7e front end. While I'll listen to most anything, jazz, pop, rock and choral music recorded in big halls/cathedrals generally are playing on my system. I have extensively experiemented with the Vantage woofer controls to achieve the best bass balance without an external sub-woofer for much of the past year.

At least in my room, my Vantages just don't have sufficient bass output to balance the superb mids and highs. On and off, I have connected my old Infinity Modulus sub w/active cross-over. While I will admit to being a bass freak, my preference is to add just enough low frequency output to make the tonal presentation authentic (with the sub connected, my Vantage woofer controls are set at "0"). With the sub, my Vantages are terrific, accurate and deliver the quality and quantity of sound that I expected. I do not hear a discontinuity between the fast ESL elements and the sub. So, yes, I think that my system needed this bass augmentation and I would not be happy with just the Vantage system alone.

My opinion (for my room) is that I hear an overall improvement in tonal balance with the sub. I cannot effect this same improvement with just the Vantages at any of its woofer settings. The addition of the sub = much more realistic presentation of the recording, to my ears.

Would Summits do better? Probably. But I am very happy with my current setup. If I could find a second matching Modulus sub, I would probably buy it and set up each sub as a single channel. This would give rather heavenly deep bass ambience in cathedral organ music recordings. Told you that I was a bass freak!

My $0.02

Best to All,

Rick

 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I'm just reading this thread and it is an interesting one. Thought that I would add my two cents.

My Vantages are set up in a room about 17' deep (my head is 13' from the front of the stats) and 23' wide. I'm running a vintage Krell KSA-250 with a KSP-7B/Ayre CX-7e front end. While I'll listen to most anything, jazz, pop, rock and choral music recorded in big halls/cathedrals generally are playing on my system. I have extensively experiemented with the Vantage woofer controls to achieve the best bass balance without an external sub-woofer for much of the past year.

At least in my room, my Vantages just don't have sufficient bass output to balance the superb mids and highs. On and off, I have connected my old Infinity Modulus sub w/active cross-over. While I will admit to being a bass freak, my preference is to add just enough low frequency output to make the tonal presentation authentic (with the sub connected, my Vantage woofer controls are set at "0"). With the sub, my Vantages are terrific, accurate and deliver the quality and quantity of sound that I expected. I do not hear a discontinuity between the fast ESL elements and the sub. So, yes, I think that my system needed this bass augmentation and I would not be happy with just the Vantage system alone.

My opinion (for my room) is that I hear an overall improvement in tonal balance with the sub. I cannot effect this same improvement with just the Vantages at any of its woofer settings. The addition of the sub = much more realistic presentation of the recording, to my ears.

Would Summits do better? Probably. But I am very happy with my current setup. If I could find a second matching Modulus sub, I would probably buy it and set up each sub as a single channel. This would give rather heavenly deep bass ambience in cathedral organ music recordings. Told you that I was a bass freak!

My $0.02

Best to All,

Rick

I'm a new vantage owner and am becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the bass output in my similarly sized room. I haven't played much yet with the woofer output control - nor have I installed the spikes as I have yet to finalize their position. I have them out 4-1/2 feet into the room, I'm loathe to move them much closer to the front wall as the wall behind the right speaker checks into the room about 3.5 feet. I could move them closer to the front wall but that would have the effect of the speakers seeing a narrower room behind them...if this makes any sense. In effect I'd need to make the effective width of the room around 13.5' instead of 17 or so feet it is now.

The more I read this thread; and the more I expiriment in my room; the closer I'm coming to concluding that i won't be satisfied without a sub.

 

[babydoc]

To Sub or not to Sub?

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. There are many variables in the effect that subwoofers may have on any system. I have a system that serves as a 2.1 for music and 5.1 for theater. Main speakers are Summits with Stage Center and Script-i rear speakers. My room is 22 x 15 x 8 and is treated with Echo-Buster panels so that it has a "live" end and "dead" end.
I started out with one Descent when it first came out for my theater. I configured the system so that I could also use it for music. What I heard was not so much heart-stopping low bass, although a few records (like RR's Dafos) have this information. What I heard was better mid-range coherence and imaging.
I have gradually add another Descent and finally two Descent-i's. These speakers are variably out of phase with the main speakers. In addition, the volume controls are far from their maximum. There have been a number of artilces in the past few years on the use of multiple subs arrayed in a listening room to mitigate bass nodes. My subs are placed by necessity near but away from actual room corners.
I have had this set up for more than one year and the realism of the music from a good source is very near what you hear in live performance with the rate-limiting step being the recording technique and mastering of the disc.
I would recommend that one begins with an audition of a single sub and then experimenting with additional subs as time and money permit. The only caveat is that all of the subs should be closely matched.

 

[Kaboomnash]

I have Vantages on spikes with cups; I have added a small Klipsch sub under an end table closer to my sitting position for added effect.

Mine is a multi-use system so the additional sub assists with home theatre use as well.

Lee

 

[IWalker]

:drool:Also, playing at the limit of a driver's capabilities will likely introduce quite a bit of extra distortion into the signal. The woofers used in the vantages and even the summits are likely fairly poorly behaved in their lowest octave (as pretty much all speakers will be, considering that compared to one octave above, the excursion will have to double to produce the same output level) , thus using a speaker (a sub) more suited to the task (able to go much lower) would likely significantly reduce the distortion of the system as a whole. higher order non linear distortion in the bass frequencies are going to be audible as noise in the midrange. I think that generally the more capability you have, the better it will perform even when it's not being pushed to its limits. So while a sub may not be necessary with "full range" speakers...I think it almost always helps. (other factors, including placement also recommend the use of a sub)

If you really want to do a sub right...go IB (see JonFo's sub ... :drool ... but the ML servo subs are certainly nice if that option isn't available to you...and are actually pretty affordable considering the level of performance.

 

[rhom]

Does one need a subwoofer for quality bass? I have heard that adding a subwoofer contrasts the bass with the mids and highs, improving them in the process. Is this true or is it a myth?

(I am assuming that if one’s room is partially treated, the bass gets stronger but muddier, and may be outright anemic in an untreated room)

Thanks

In my previous post, I can see that I may not have commented on David's original questions. Here goes.

I've never owned a speaker system that was acknowledged to be an excellent "full range system" a la some of the Infinity systems of the 70s & 80s or Wilson WATT/Puppies. But I have listened to a wide range of otherwise well-regarded systems, including several ML models (Summits, several CLS systems, Sequels, Aerius I), the upper-end Thiels, Quads, Vandersteen 2xx series, Apogees, B&W 801s, upper-end ProAcs and mid/upper-end Magneplanars.

My experience is that most of these systems will benefit from the addition of a high quality independent subwoofer. When adjusted correctly (and this is not an easy process, it requires ongoing adjustments, sometimes from cut to cut), to my ears good subs complement the mids, highs and upper bass of the rest of the system. This is not accomplished by contrast, but by addition. For lack of a better description, good low frequency reproduction seems to literally set the "foundation" for the rest of the speaker system's output. The music just sounds more real to me.

Every one of my listening rooms over the years has been totally untreated. Right or wrong, I've not made this investment in room treatments (yet). My findings are that the addition of a quality sub adds both quality to the entire sonic output of my main system as well as quantity to the bass output. Every time. I haven't heard muddier or anemic. [I did hear muddier when a friend brought over his $600 mid-fi HT sub that he had just purchased from Best Buys. Lots of Boom, Boom. When the output was adjusted for clean bass, we found that the Vantage woofers went deeper into the bass frequencies!]

Hope that this helps. Your experiences may differ and I'll be glad to hear about them.

Best,

Rick

 

[SundayNiagara]

Well, the CLS's have a built-in 'filter' around 40hz or so.

All ESL's need to not try and reproduce signals close to their resonant frequencies. the bigger the panel, the lower the resonant frequency, but they all have it.

Steep 4th order or greater Crossover can achieve the goal of having the panel play as low as possible while keeping as much of the signal away from the resonant frequency.
This also keeps the sub from trying to play in ranges it's not really good at either.

Filter the sub, not the 'stat!